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Hill stat is not working at all right now
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| Masterblaster01 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 20:27
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Neo-Pro
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Well.. I think they are actually right in case of uphill finishes.. Because i always increase the effort beyond 86 in that last mean ascend, getting to 90 and even 95 for the last couple of meters.. In that case riders like Gilbert, Gerrans or Albasini will win if the hill is only like 2-3 km's.
Is it a larger hill, say 5 km's the first part will be effort 85 probably, giving riders like Valverde and D. Martin a better chance because the riders named above will suffer for too long.
If the hill is even longer, say 10 km (it's not a hill is it  ) the likes of Froomey or Quintana will have it their way because the effort will rarely get above 86, maybe just sprinting 95 in the last 0,5km to take the win, but the climbers will have dropped the punchers already.
I think it's actually quite realistic, putting it like this..
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| cio93 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 20:30
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
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It's realistic if stages are 20 kilometres long. Period.
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| stealingsilver |
Posted on 19-06-2017 20:57
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Free Agent
Posts: 113
Joined: 08-02-2013
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Masterblaster01 wrote:
Well.. I think they are actually right in case of uphill finishes.. Because i always increase the effort beyond 86 in that last mean ascend, getting to 90 and even 95 for the last couple of meters.. In that case riders like Gilbert, Gerrans or Albasini will win if the hill is only like 2-3 km's.
Is it a larger hill, say 5 km's the first part will be effort 85 probably, giving riders like Valverde and D. Martin a better chance because the riders named above will suffer for too long.
If the hill is even longer, say 10 km (it's not a hill is it ) the likes of Froomey or Quintana will have it their way because the effort will rarely get above 86, maybe just sprinting 95 in the last 0,5km to take the win, but the climbers will have dropped the punchers already.
I think it's actually quite realistic, putting it like this..
I think this is great for mountain stages however with hilly stages it would not work. Only towards the final few k would riders go over 85. However pure climbers should be out of contention at this point due to having to hang on over undulating roads. |
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:04
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3264
Joined: 02-11-2010
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Playing 2015 was planning to buy 2017 but not interested in moving to 2017 if this is broken.
How is this working in game - are people seeing strange results in the hilly classics? That is the test Cyanide put out in that forum exchange - interested to know if the game is passing it? |
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:06
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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it might be a stats issue
new system might need new stats
are you guys trying with the cyanide db or pcmdaily?
i tried liege bastogne a few times with the cyanide db and everything seems fine
my last test was with sky putting the mountain train on the front the entire way and gilbert was still fighting for the win at the end (65mo 82hi) and got 3rd
going to try pcmdaily lite now
Edited by Thatguyeveryonehates on 19-06-2017 21:08
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| cio93 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:07
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
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Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
Playing 2015 was planning to buy 2017 but not interested in moving to 2017 if this is broken.
How is this working in game - are people seeing strange results in the hilly classics? That is the test Cyanide put out in that forum exchange - interested to know if the game is passing it?
Well the next post Paul made in that thread was that he got second with Froome in LBL after putting his hill to 60.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:19
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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cio93 wrote:
Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
Playing 2015 was planning to buy 2017 but not interested in moving to 2017 if this is broken.
How is this working in game - are people seeing strange results in the hilly classics? That is the test Cyanide put out in that forum exchange - interested to know if the game is passing it?
Well the next post Paul made in that thread was that he got second with Froome in LBL after putting his hill to 60.
i saw that so i did the same test and got 4th with froome
but gilbert won (65mo) with alaphilippe 2nd (76mo)
finished the 1st test with pcmdaily lite db
cant really test gilbert with this db he's a domestique for martin and alaphilippe
but gerrans (69mo/77hi) finished in the front group in the top 10 |
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:22
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Amateur
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PCM$: 200.00
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Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
it might be a stats issue
new system might need new stats
are you guys trying with the cyanide db or pcmdaily?
i tried liege bastogne a few times with the cyanide db and everything seems fine
my last test was with sky putting the mountain train on the front the entire way and gilbert was still fighting for the win at the end (65mo 82hi) and got 3rd
going to try pcmdaily lite now
What concerns me more: I rode LBL 2 times now and I didn't saw any attack. Just Sky pulling the pack. |
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:23
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Matti23 wrote:
Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
it might be a stats issue
new system might need new stats
are you guys trying with the cyanide db or pcmdaily?
i tried liege bastogne a few times with the cyanide db and everything seems fine
my last test was with sky putting the mountain train on the front the entire way and gilbert was still fighting for the win at the end (65mo 82hi) and got 3rd
going to try pcmdaily lite now
What concerns me more: I rode LBL 2 times now and I didn't saw any attack. Just Sky pulling the pack.
so just like real life eh?  |
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:27
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Amateur
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Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
Matti23 wrote:
Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
it might be a stats issue
new system might need new stats
are you guys trying with the cyanide db or pcmdaily?
i tried liege bastogne a few times with the cyanide db and everything seems fine
my last test was with sky putting the mountain train on the front the entire way and gilbert was still fighting for the win at the end (65mo 82hi) and got 3rd
going to try pcmdaily lite now
What concerns me more: I rode LBL 2 times now and I didn't saw any attack. Just Sky pulling the pack.
so just like real life eh?
I know. But I hope you see my point. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 21:49
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
cio93 wrote:
Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
Playing 2015 was planning to buy 2017 but not interested in moving to 2017 if this is broken.
How is this working in game - are people seeing strange results in the hilly classics? That is the test Cyanide put out in that forum exchange - interested to know if the game is passing it?
Well the next post Paul made in that thread was that he got second with Froome in LBL after putting his hill to 60.
i saw that so i did the same test and got 4th with froome
but gilbert won (65mo) with alaphilippe 2nd (76mo)
finished the 1st test with pcmdaily lite db
cant really test gilbert with this db he's a domestique for martin and alaphilippe
but gerrans (69mo/77hi) finished in the front group in the top 10
Well to me it doesn't really matter what the AI can achieve, what matters is whether I can achieve it too.
And in PCM 16 I prefer a 76/74 guy over a 74/78 guy any day of the week so if the whole situation got even worse this year...
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 22:43
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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cio93 wrote:
Thatguyeveryonehates wrote:
cio93 wrote:
Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
Playing 2015 was planning to buy 2017 but not interested in moving to 2017 if this is broken.
How is this working in game - are people seeing strange results in the hilly classics? That is the test Cyanide put out in that forum exchange - interested to know if the game is passing it?
Well the next post Paul made in that thread was that he got second with Froome in LBL after putting his hill to 60.
i saw that so i did the same test and got 4th with froome
but gilbert won (65mo) with alaphilippe 2nd (76mo)
finished the 1st test with pcmdaily lite db
cant really test gilbert with this db he's a domestique for martin and alaphilippe
but gerrans (69mo/77hi) finished in the front group in the top 10
Well to me it doesn't really matter what the AI can achieve, what matters is whether I can achieve it too.
And in PCM 16 I prefer a 76/74 guy over a 74/78 guy any day of the week so if the whole situation got even worse this year...
Now I would prefer a 75/60 guy over gilbert...
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 19-06-2017 23:02
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3264
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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Well if you take Cyanide's comment at face value they would say that Froome getting 2nd in LBL with 60 hill isn't that bad - just like in a long windy flat stage you might see a Fabian Cancellara doing well in a field sprint.
Now I recognize that Cancellara isn't a 60 sprinter so it is definitely flawed but maybe not completely broken.
Perhaps a better test race would be Fleche Wallone which is all about the final hill but not as tough as LBL before that. IRL Nibali and the Schleks target(ed) LBL but not Fleche or Amstel so to to say Froome shouldn't do well in LBL, if he tried, isn't totally true. But he really shouldn't do well in those other two.
I think they are saying you have to rethink the MO and Hill stat - that all good hill riders should have at least a decent mountain stat but maybe good mountain riders really shouldn't have good hill stats, like their are great cobbled riders with terrible sprints. Hills becomes the finishing stat (although not sure how acceleration is then different than Hills for a puncheur). |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 23:16
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
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Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
Well if you take Cyanide's comment at face value they would say that Froome getting 2nd in LBL with 60 hill isn't that bad - just like in a long windy flat stage you might see a Fabian Cancellara doing well in a field sprint.
Now I recognize that Cancellara isn't a 60 sprinter so it is definitely flawed but maybe not completely broken.
Their comment about how sprinters win flat stages even though the sprint stat only matters in the final 3 km is trolling at its finest, and hearing it from a staff member is frankly insulting. (not even to mention that apparently, they don't even do that in this game)
Put sprinters on 60 flat and they don't win either, and rightfully so. Good sprinters have good flat stats, and by that logic good puncheurs have to have good mountain stats as well.
The problem is: giving a sprinter a good flat stat doesn't hurt anybody, giving a puncheur a good mountain stat ruins stage racing (->Sagan).
Edited by cio93 on 19-06-2017 23:29
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| Masterblaster01 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 23:43
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Neo-Pro
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Think Ulrich points out the right conclusion.
Hill should now be seen as the finishing stat when finishing.. uphill..
It's not that bad if Froome gets in top 5 or top 10, heck, maybe he wins it once in his career. IRL he doesn't perform there because that's not when he's in top shape. Froomey in top shape could win LBL. It would be against the odd probably, but he surely could win or finish top 10 at least.
2017 LBL
6th - Romain Bardet
8th - Adam Yates
10th - Rafal Majka
2016 LBL
1st - Wout Poels (a stage racer if you ask me)
5th - Ilnur Zakarin
9th - Bauke Mollema
2015 LBL
6th - Romain Bardet
All the above are stage racers or climbers. So, when climbers/stage racers are reaching their best form in LBL they really can make a steady top 10 classification.
When looking at the results in the Amstel Gold Race i could give you an overview as well, but i don't see any stage racers in those top 10's. So that's the kind of races we should be testing to see if the stage racers / climbers take FREQUENT top 10 classifications.
Hillstat should maybe be adjusted be looking at those races? When Froome manages to get good classifications with 60 hill, it means he doens't need it. No need giving it so he isn't gonna win AGR as well. Stats should be checked according to race results in races like AGR or Fleche.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 19-06-2017 23:59
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
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Masterblaster01 wrote:
Think Ulrich points out the right conclusion.
Hill should now be seen as the finishing stat when finishing.. uphill..
It's not that bad if Froome gets in top 5 or top 10, heck, maybe he wins it once in his career. IRL he doesn't perform there because that's not when he's in top shape. Froomey in top shape could win LBL. It would be against the odd probably, but he surely could win or finish top 10 at least.
2017 LBL
6th - Romain Bardet
8th - Adam Yates
10th - Rafal Majka
2016 LBL
1st - Wout Poels (a stage racer if you ask me)
5th - Ilnur Zakarin
9th - Bauke Mollema
2015 LBL
6th - Romain Bardet
All the above are stage racers or climbers. So, when climbers/stage racers are reaching their best form in LBL they really can make a steady top 10 classification.
When looking at the results in the Amstel Gold Race i could give you an overview as well, but i don't see any stage racers in those top 10's. So that's the kind of races we should be testing to see if the stage racers / climbers take FREQUENT top 10 classifications.
Hillstat should maybe be adjusted be looking at those races? When Froome manages to get good classifications with 60 hill, it means he doens't need it. No need giving it so he isn't gonna win AGR as well. Stats should be checked according to race results in races like AGR or Fleche.
That's not the way. How do you create a Gilbert then? He needs around 75+ MO to be as good as in real life, but that would give him the possibility to be amazing in GTs. Matthews would also need around 75 MO then. On the other side, Froome needs 50 HI, Quintana as well...basically everyone who's not a serious contender for the win doesn't need the hill stat.
It was way better before. Same with the sprint stat as cio pointed out. When my Pro-Cyclist with 76 SP and 76 ACC gets outsprinted by guys with 71 SP and 73 ACC on a totally flat stage, that can't be right. And that on easy. In the last years I could play on extreme just fine. It was sometimes too hard and sometimes just right. Now even easy seems to be too hard for me. The sprints are way to messy for my taste and so I take the wheel of another sprinter, but I can't get around him in 1.5k and I even blow before the finish, whilst he stays strong...PCM 17 is broken.
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 20-06-2017 01:09
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3264
Joined: 02-11-2010
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Not arguing the sprint stats that sounds broken.
On the MO/HI thing - not sure giving Gilbert a 75 MO is going to turn him into a GT contender, particularly not with poor recovery. Tour of California yes, but then those kinds of riders win the TOC
I do see that it then creates a problem with someone like Meintjes, if the punchy riders are all 76-77 MO, when do you rate the second tier GC guys? |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 20-06-2017 07:30
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
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My tactic for the extreme difficulty with good hilly squads and riders always was putting the pressure at major points throughout the whole stage/classic, thus using the specialists hilly stat. With dotting in crucial parts of the climbs at 70-80 effort, closely monitoring the heart rate and energy usage. So now you tell me hill stat does not even matter with this tactic and only is used in some 0,01% of the race?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Edit: And those reaction from their staff, like really? this is how you treat your customer? Dickheads. 
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 20-06-2017 08:04
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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why are you guys repeating that gilbert has to have great mo to be competitive in liege?
i already told you gilbert does great in liege with 65mo
try it
dont do it with the pcmdaily db hes only the 3rd strongest on the team (martin, alaphilippe) so he gets used as a domestique
use another db like cyanide and see
even gerrans with 77hi does well and gets a result
you guys are yelling without trying things and experimenting so youre just repeating misinformation |
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 20-06-2017 08:36
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Team Manager
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I just tried. I played LBL with QS myself, actively left Martin and Alaphilippe out of the squad. Gilbert had a higher heartrate on every climb than Jungels and Brambilla. The strange thing was that even when I was dotting on 87 effort with Gilbert, which should use his 82 hill, right, weaker riders were passing him left and right. In the end, I barely cracked the Top 20 while Jungels, who was riding on automatic until the final 3km finished 7th. Now that may just be me being bad at the game, but Jungels was almost always pretty close to Gilbert in terms of position, and he wasn't being protected, yet he had more yellow and green bars towards the final kilometers. All that on hard. Gilbert had +1, Jungels +2.
Interestingly enough, Michal Kwiatkowski, by far the worst climber left in the main group, won the whole thing. Other than that, Uran was the worst climber with 76 in 10th place. Wellens and Rui Costa 12 and 13, Froome 21, but obviously not as a captain.
€dit: To take it one step further, I played the Amstel Gold Race, again with Gilbert. To exclude the possibility of just me not managing the fitness correctly, I let Brambilla protect Gilbert the entire race. Here's what the fitness looked like 8 kms from the finish. Also notice Jungels, who was once again riding on automatic...
€dit 2: Just to really make sure it's not me just messing up ...
Edited by cunego59 on 20-06-2017 09:19
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