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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
Arberg27
Croatia14 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Why Cavendish 81 and Greipel 82?


just take a look at this years sprints...
3-0.
 
Croatia14
Arberg27 wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Why Cavendish 81 and Greipel 82?


just take a look at this years sprints...
3-0.


that is just wrong - but I guess I made my points already in earlier discussions, so no need to waste time on that again
pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2019/moty.png
 
Tafiolmo
Arberg27 wrote:
Why Cavendish only 81?


We're still not convinced he's quite as fast as before to warrant an 82 again, largely because all the sprints have been messy ones so far in the Tour and he's probably the best sprinter in the peloton at winning messy sprints anyway, largely due to his huge experience whereas Kittel and especially Greipel like cleaner sprints.

Also there are other things to take into consideration and that is the quality of the rider's sprint train and based on PCM15 Cav's would be the strongest if the real startlists were used for this Tour. We've yet to do sufficient testing with PCM16 to see if this would still be the case and the rider with the best sprint train is practically worth an extra point at times in the game. The Etixx train though only gets better when Gaviria is there for Kittel but as they often don't race together irl that doesn't happen too often.

For Cav to entertain a return to 82 we need to see a more traditional sprint where both Kittel and Greipel haven't lost wheels or been boxed in.
pcmdaily.com/files/exppack/Banner/DBTeam24.png
 
tobgunn123
Arberg27 wrote:
MARSUPILAMI wrote:
Will you lower Contador's MO much?
In my opinion is Contador 81 mountain, he is too old to TDF (or he lacks steak), but he can still win Giro and Vuelta, so 81. That he is miserable to avoid crashes does not make him worse in mountain.

really? he has crashed more than two times. Nibali is the one that should be nerfed.
 
jandal7
tobgunn123 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
MARSUPILAMI wrote:
Will you lower Contador's MO much?
In my opinion is Contador 81 mountain, he is too old to TDF (or he lacks steak), but he can still win Giro and Vuelta, so 81. That he is miserable to avoid crashes does not make him worse in mountain.

really? he has crashed more than two times. Nibali is the one that should be nerfed.

Nibali just *grits teeth* won a GT in May. Like, a month ago.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
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[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] i.imgur.com/c85NSl6.png Xero Racing

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Tafiolmo
As Jandal has said Nibali has just won a GT and it's surprising how some members don't recognize the huge fatigue levels that are involved here. In gaming terms a rider that has just gone for GC in the Giro and then riding the Tour is probably on average looking like 3-4 points lower than what he should be, so Nibali instead of 81 could realistically be a 78-77 at best in the Tour. This of course would be a modification system that each player would need to do themselves if they were concerned that much with realism.

Some riders though do rec better between the short gap of tours like Majka who's probably in better shape than Nibali for the Tour but even then at best he should still be at least 2 points less than normal. It's probably only Valverde that springs to mind that can probably maintain the same level, but his problem though is high altitude which is of course another story.

As said Contador has crashed so no reason to drop him from 82. When riders crash badly in-game but still continue they tend to lose even more time that they would irl anyway over the rest of the race.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 10-07-2016 13:46
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tobgunn123
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one
 
Tafiolmo
tobgunn123 wrote:
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one


Based on what we've seen so far Contador will probably be the only rider on 82 BUT what there will be, will probably be a sorting out of the riders on 81 and 80 to separate them more (speaking just about the very top mtn stats) for example I think Porte is a point better than TVG etc.
pcmdaily.com/files/exppack/Banner/DBTeam24.png
 
Paul23
Ollfardh wrote:
tobgunn123 wrote:
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one


It has just been said Contador will not be dropped to 82..


Read again, please. It was said, that he won't be dropped "from" 82.
i.imgur.com/aJSlUNt.png
 
Arberg27
Tafiolmo wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Why Cavendish only 81?


We're still not convinced he's quite as fast as before to warrant an 82 again, largely because all the sprints have been messy ones so far in the Tour and he's probably the best sprinter in the peloton at winning messy sprints anyway, largely due to his huge experience whereas Kittel and especially Greipel like cleaner sprints.

Also there are other things to take into consideration and that is the quality of the rider's sprint train and based on PCM15 Cav's would be the strongest if the real startlists were used for this Tour. We've yet to do sufficient testing with PCM16 to see if this would still be the case and the rider with the best sprint train is practically worth an extra point at times in the game. The Etixx train though only gets better when Gaviria is there for Kittel but as they often don't race together irl that doesn't happen too often.

For Cav to entertain a return to 82 we need to see a more traditional sprint where both Kittel and Greipel haven't lost wheels or been boxed in.


Deep disagree. This year is 1 vs 1 and not team vs team. Cavendish 2 victories overtaken he Greipel as I have never seen others do and his 3 victories beat he Kittel in 1 vs 1.

I wonder what Cavendish to do to be the best sprinter in the game, when 47 stage wins in the Grand Tours not is enough .
 
Paul23
For the first time, I agree with Arberg. Shock
Cavendish outsprinted Greipel and Kittel in really close fights, where the true sprinting power mattered.
i.imgur.com/aJSlUNt.png
 
Forever the Best
I agree with Arberg as well.
 
Tafiolmo
Well the stats team 3-0 at the moment and for the reasons already mentioned on the previous two or three pages still thinks that Cav should be an 81 based on what we've seen so far. If he continues to win over the next sprint stages then we'll look at it again, if not then he will be a defo 81.
pcmdaily.com/files/exppack/Banner/DBTeam24.png
 
TheManxMissile
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.

Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.
i.imgur.com/UmX5YX1.jpgi.imgur.com/iRneKpI.jpgi.imgur.com/fljmGSP.jpgi.imgur.com/qV5ItIc.jpgimgur.com/dr2BAI6.jpgimgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpgi.imgur.com/C1rG9BW.jpgi.imgur.com/sEDS7gr.jpg
 
Croatia14
TheManxMissile wrote:
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.

Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.


you explained yourself why Cavendish is 1 stat lower than Greipel in game - due to Cavs acceleration they´ll feel like being on the same sprint stat
pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2019/moty.png
 
Tafiolmo
TheManxMissile wrote:
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.

Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.


Well based on all my experiences with PCM 15 and with the current sprint stats Cav is still marginally better than both Kittel and Greipel. With the order being Cav-Kittel-Greipel in order of results. So much so that earlier in the season I really wanted to put Kittel to 83 to ensure him more victories over Cav than he was actually getting (but was voted against by the rest of the team) This is largely down to 1) Cav's superior sprint train unless Gaviria is put in the Etixx one and 2) Cav's superior acc as well which is probably the pivotal reason.

Added to this both Greipel and Kittel are now facing acc decreases which should still make Cav the best aprinter % wise, despite being a point lower than those two.

Perfect examples of lower point riders riding better than riders with a point better than them are riders like Thomas, Sagan, Dumoulin and Valverde etc due to the fact that they have either very high stats throughout or a trump stat to call upon like Cav has with acc.
pcmdaily.com/files/exppack/Banner/DBTeam24.png
 
Forever the Best
Croatia14 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.

Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.


you explained yourself why Cavendish is 1 stat lower than Greipel in game - due to Cavs acceleration they´ll feel like being on the same sprint stat
But Cav has beaten Greipel so far in the Tour sprints so shouldn't Cav feel like 1 point more than Greipel due to his acc?
 
marcoplv95
Paul23 wrote:
marcoplv95 wrote:
Nibali 55 MON please

couldn't it be, that you're a bit biased on that?


You must be a genius.

Btw, i had read the discussion about Cavendish...
In my opinion, considering all what you said about experience, leadout, bad positioning, this is still a database supposed to be realistic, and Cav needs 82 to win over Greipel and Kittel in TDF.

Also, i have other opinions:
Nizzolo 73HIL and 78DHI after Italian NC.
Sagan 82ACC (-1)
Nibali +1 FTR
Froome 77DHI
Coquard..he needa a.little upgrade imo...80 SPR probably too risky but +1 HIL
A.Yates already 78 MO for.sure
GVA +1 MO and FTR

And...IF tour keeps.going this way...IMHO we should consider lowering top MO riders...(-1 Aru, Nibali, Froome, Quintana, Contador, Landa) because i don't see such gap between climbers
Edited by marcoplv95 on 12-07-2016 14:45
 
tobgunn123
Tafiolmo wrote:
tobgunn123 wrote:
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one


Based on what we've seen so far Contador will probably be the only rider on 82 BUT what there will be, will probably be a sorting out of the riders on 81 and 80 to separate them more (speaking just about the very top mtn stats) for example I think Porte is a point better than TVG etc.

agree, porte is better.
 
jpgm97
I download the Nations DB, and realised that some of the stats are different from the EP3.0. Is it correct or not? Then I was taking a look of the topic, when I realisead something.You said Thomas was 78 mountain or 78 ovarall? Because in my game he is 79 mountain... Is there any problem with the installing?
Maybe I am mistaken.
 
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