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PCM.daily Projects WT Stat Discussion
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 22:49
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Protected Rider
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Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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3-0. |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 22:51
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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that is just wrong - but I guess I made my points already in earlier discussions, so no need to waste time on that again
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 09-07-2016 22:51
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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We're still not convinced he's quite as fast as before to warrant an 82 again, largely because all the sprints have been messy ones so far in the Tour and he's probably the best sprinter in the peloton at winning messy sprints anyway, largely due to his huge experience whereas Kittel and especially Greipel like cleaner sprints.
Also there are other things to take into consideration and that is the quality of the rider's sprint train and based on PCM15 Cav's would be the strongest if the real startlists were used for this Tour. We've yet to do sufficient testing with PCM16 to see if this would still be the case and the rider with the best sprint train is practically worth an extra point at times in the game. The Etixx train though only gets better when Gaviria is there for Kittel but as they often don't race together irl that doesn't happen too often.
For Cav to entertain a return to 82 we need to see a more traditional sprint where both Kittel and Greipel haven't lost wheels or been boxed in.
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 10-07-2016 12:53
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
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Arberg27 wrote:
In my opinion is Contador 81 mountain, he is too old to TDF (or he lacks steak), but he can still win Giro and Vuelta, so 81. That he is miserable to avoid crashes does not make him worse in mountain.
really? he has crashed more than two times. Nibali is the one that should be nerfed. |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 10-07-2016 12:56
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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tobgunn123 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
In my opinion is Contador 81 mountain, he is too old to TDF (or he lacks steak), but he can still win Giro and Vuelta, so 81. That he is miserable to avoid crashes does not make him worse in mountain.
really? he has crashed more than two times. Nibali is the one that should be nerfed.
Nibali just *grits teeth* won a GT in May. Like, a month ago.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 10-07-2016 13:13
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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As Jandal has said Nibali has just won a GT and it's surprising how some members don't recognize the huge fatigue levels that are involved here. In gaming terms a rider that has just gone for GC in the Giro and then riding the Tour is probably on average looking like 3-4 points lower than what he should be, so Nibali instead of 81 could realistically be a 78-77 at best in the Tour. This of course would be a modification system that each player would need to do themselves if they were concerned that much with realism.
Some riders though do rec better between the short gap of tours like Majka who's probably in better shape than Nibali for the Tour but even then at best he should still be at least 2 points less than normal. It's probably only Valverde that springs to mind that can probably maintain the same level, but his problem though is high altitude which is of course another story.
As said Contador has crashed so no reason to drop him from 82. When riders crash badly in-game but still continue they tend to lose even more time that they would irl anyway over the rest of the race.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 10-07-2016 13:46
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 10-07-2016 16:25
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
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will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 05:46
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Bot Agent
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 10-07-2016 17:43
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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tobgunn123 wrote:
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one
Based on what we've seen so far Contador will probably be the only rider on 82 BUT what there will be, will probably be a sorting out of the riders on 81 and 80 to separate them more (speaking just about the very top mtn stats) for example I think Porte is a point better than TVG etc.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 10-07-2016 18:17
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
tobgunn123 wrote:
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one
It has just been said Contador will not be dropped to 82..
Read again, please. It was said, that he won't be dropped "from" 82.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 10-07-2016 19:05
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
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Tafiolmo wrote:
We're still not convinced he's quite as fast as before to warrant an 82 again, largely because all the sprints have been messy ones so far in the Tour and he's probably the best sprinter in the peloton at winning messy sprints anyway, largely due to his huge experience whereas Kittel and especially Greipel like cleaner sprints.
Also there are other things to take into consideration and that is the quality of the rider's sprint train and based on PCM15 Cav's would be the strongest if the real startlists were used for this Tour. We've yet to do sufficient testing with PCM16 to see if this would still be the case and the rider with the best sprint train is practically worth an extra point at times in the game. The Etixx train though only gets better when Gaviria is there for Kittel but as they often don't race together irl that doesn't happen too often.
For Cav to entertain a return to 82 we need to see a more traditional sprint where both Kittel and Greipel haven't lost wheels or been boxed in.
Deep disagree. This year is 1 vs 1 and not team vs team. Cavendish 2 victories overtaken he Greipel as I have never seen others do and his 3 victories beat he Kittel in 1 vs 1.
I wonder what Cavendish to do to be the best sprinter in the game, when 47 stage wins in the Grand Tours not is enough . |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 10-07-2016 20:54
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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For the first time, I agree with Arberg. 
Cavendish outsprinted Greipel and Kittel in really close fights, where the true sprinting power mattered.
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 10-07-2016 20:56
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
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I agree with Arberg as well. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 11-07-2016 13:50
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Well the stats team 3-0 at the moment and for the reasons already mentioned on the previous two or three pages still thinks that Cav should be an 81 based on what we've seen so far. If he continues to win over the next sprint stages then we'll look at it again, if not then he will be a defo 81.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-07-2016 14:18
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.
Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 11-07-2016 14:21
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.
Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.
you explained yourself why Cavendish is 1 stat lower than Greipel in game - due to Cavs acceleration they´ll feel like being on the same sprint stat
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 11-07-2016 14:31
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.
Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.
Well based on all my experiences with PCM 15 and with the current sprint stats Cav is still marginally better than both Kittel and Greipel. With the order being Cav-Kittel-Greipel in order of results. So much so that earlier in the season I really wanted to put Kittel to 83 to ensure him more victories over Cav than he was actually getting (but was voted against by the rest of the team) This is largely down to 1) Cav's superior sprint train unless Gaviria is put in the Etixx one and 2) Cav's superior acc as well which is probably the pivotal reason.
Added to this both Greipel and Kittel are now facing acc decreases which should still make Cav the best aprinter % wise, despite being a point lower than those two.
Perfect examples of lower point riders riding better than riders with a point better than them are riders like Thomas, Sagan, Dumoulin and Valverde etc due to the fact that they have either very high stats throughout or a trump stat to call upon like Cav has with acc.
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 11-07-2016 15:17
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
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Croatia14 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Yeah i find it hard to have Cavendish lower than Greipel in SP. They've matched up in 11 race days this season, and Cav has finished ahead on 8 of them. The two Greipel was ahead were the TDF stage 5, 8 and 9, hardly sprints.
Greipel and Cav's have had pretty similar seasons outside the GT's as well, both picking up wins here and there in weaker races. Andre won 3 Giro sprints, but those were definately easier than Cav's 3 TDF sprints. The two really should be on the same SP stat, with Kittel just ahead.
Greipel i assume will come with more strength countered by Cav's acceleration, to give them some differentiation.
you explained yourself why Cavendish is 1 stat lower than Greipel in game - due to Cavs acceleration they´ll feel like being on the same sprint stat But Cav has beaten Greipel so far in the Tour sprints so shouldn't Cav feel like 1 point more than Greipel due to his acc? |
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| marcoplv95 |
Posted on 12-07-2016 14:18
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Stagiare
Posts: 210
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You must be a genius.
Btw, i had read the discussion about Cavendish...
In my opinion, considering all what you said about experience, leadout, bad positioning, this is still a database supposed to be realistic, and Cav needs 82 to win over Greipel and Kittel in TDF.
Also, i have other opinions:
Nizzolo 73HIL and 78DHI after Italian NC.
Sagan 82ACC (-1)
Nibali +1 FTR
Froome 77DHI
Coquard..he needa a.little upgrade imo...80 SPR probably too risky but +1 HIL
A.Yates already 78 MO for.sure
GVA +1 MO and FTR
And...IF tour keeps.going this way...IMHO we should consider lowering top MO riders...(-1 Aru, Nibali, Froome, Quintana, Contador, Landa) because i don't see such gap between climbers
Edited by marcoplv95 on 12-07-2016 14:45
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 12-07-2016 15:19
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
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Tafiolmo wrote:
tobgunn123 wrote:
will there be any other than contador that will be 82? for me, contador should be the only one
Based on what we've seen so far Contador will probably be the only rider on 82 BUT what there will be, will probably be a sorting out of the riders on 81 and 80 to separate them more (speaking just about the very top mtn stats) for example I think Porte is a point better than TVG etc.
agree, porte is better. |
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| jpgm97 |
Posted on 13-07-2016 14:11
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Free Agent
Posts: 100
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I download the Nations DB, and realised that some of the stats are different from the EP3.0. Is it correct or not? Then I was taking a look of the topic, when I realisead something.You said Thomas was 78 mountain or 78 ovarall? Because in my game he is 79 mountain... Is there any problem with the installing?
Maybe I am mistaken. |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
