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Discussion about new hill/mnt stat
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 23-06-2016 21:26
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Ian Butler wrote:
I agree with TschuuX
I'm only worried about the ManGame database when it'll use PCM16 to run races, as balances are sometimes way off there!
The domination of Robert Gesink shall finally begin!
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| cio93 |
Posted on 23-06-2016 21:29
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Ian Butler wrote:
I agree with TschuuX
I'm only worried about the ManGame database when it'll use PCM16 to run races, as balances are sometimes way off there!
I don't think we can use PCM16 if the effects can be this big.
DB makers can adapt stats to fit the game mechanics, we obviously can't (the only way would be to adapt the renewals algorithms and force a change in how we value different rider types).
Of course di Maggio or Alarcon have always been high risk, but at least they also were potentially high reward so far.
And I don't think better graphics would be a sufficient lone reason to always take the newest edition now that 3d can look really great already, so unless the AI massively improves, why shouldn't we consider to stay with a working game for as long as it's supported by new Windows versions?
Edited by cio93 on 23-06-2016 21:35
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| markvr |
Posted on 23-06-2016 22:11
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Thanks for the tests sierramike.
I think the new mountain/hill system will be near impossible to balance properly. The old system worked in getting realistic results in both mountain stages and hill stages/classics by have a climb/hill ratio deciding what is the stat used for climbing. Gilbert/ type of riders will win the Amstel Gold Race/Luik-Bastenaken-Luik and Quintana/Froome type of riders will win on the Alpe d'Huez.
Would love to see a test between Dan Martin (78 CL/82HL) type of riders and Quintana (83 CL/77HL) type of riders. If it is true that the HL stat is close worthless now in a hill classic, the Quintana types will win easily. You can test it with complete teams (8x Quintana in one team and 8x D. Martin team) and mixed team (4x Quintana and 4x D. Martin in one team) and see what will happen.
It isn't realistic if a Dan Martin type of rider would get tired earlier than the Quintana type of rider in a hill race. He would only get tired faster if there is a mountain stage (Purito's Vuelta stage for example). So I am really wondering how they are going to compensate the hill riders for their weakness in climbing at a low heart rate. The benefit of climbing better at a high heart rate doesn't compensate the weakness at all. |
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| TschuuX |
Posted on 23-06-2016 22:24
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sierramike wrote:
TschuuX wrote:
The problem with the tests above is, that the difference between hill and mountain was ridiculous high. I mean srsly which rider could sprint up a Hill with 82 hill and is ridiculously bad in the Mountains (65 f. example) Even if the two stats are closer together (75/80; 77/77; 80/75) its still a huge difference if you have 75 hill or 80 hill when it comes to the last sprint.
It wasn't 82 vs 65.It was 58 vs rest of peleton 65.
So I did test 12 teams Mo 75-Hi 70 & 13 other way.
The first test :the first Hil guy came at 13'58
Second test,there was a hiller at #6 & #17,probably had +5 rdc wich of course gives them 75 Mo too.
But if you want to tell yourself Cyanide wouldn't release changes without everything perfectly balanced, go ahead.
Like I said before if I walk up up a hill more slowly it doesn't make it a mountain.
TschuuX wrote:
It was like a guy standing at the beginning of a mountain/hill and say " hey this stage is in Hill catergory, sry froom you will suck now!"
You don't make sense.It should be "standing at the beginning on a HILL,you will suck vs Gilbert".But again,test results show he will do alot better in PCM16 then 15 on hill stages,while LBL2016: 112 place at 10'
Just test yourself ,get the normal DB ,choose customm team,& get 4 of the guys with the big difference between Hi&Mo ,you will see ..
I never said that its allready balanced. I play this game for years now but i never used the standard DB. What is said is, that the new system makes much more sense than the old.
And yes, going up a hill slowly is like going up a mountain. A mountain is not more than a very long hill if you want. Only the pace makes the difference.
You make 2 tests or lets say 10 with an unbalanced DB.
Plus the game has 1000 other flaws becouse its obviously unfinished.
Plus you take part in the test as a team, which leads to incredible bad decisions of the AI (like in every previous game) Because the ai wants you to lose, more than an ai team wants to win. I had games where a breakaway comes in 40 minutes before the peleton which leads to a no name tour winner just because no one puts any effort in the peleton.
Again. I never said that the game is Good, I never said that the game is even OK. IMO this game is completely unfinished and its a shame for everyone who worked on it.
BUT
This discussion is about that new system. and it absolutely make sense. Of course it need balance, and yes you need to adjust your playstyle but its better than the ridiculous old one.
You cant run 2 tests and say "Oh it dont work lets get back the old one"
Thats not how innovation works...
There are 100000 things you can complain about in this game, but this change is none of it. |
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| Humlesnur |
Posted on 26-06-2016 00:50
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I did a few simple tests in LBL where I took control of AG2R in one-off races.I am well aware that tests like this involve a rather rigid and slightly unnatural way of playing and as such are not entirely compatible with "normal", but I do think the following corroborates Sierramike's conclusions.
I edited the riders as follows:
1st test:
3 riders with 65/85 MO/HIL
3 riders with 75/75 MO/HIL
2 riders with 85/65 MO/HIL
2nd test:
3 riders with 70/80 MO/HIL
3 riders with 75/75 MO/HIL
2 riders with 80/70 MO/HIL
3rd test:
3 riders with 75/85 MO/HIL
3 riders with 80/80 MO/HIL
2 riders with 85/75 MO/HIL
All other stats were set at 70 and riders from other teams were untouched (Expansion Pack V02.1).
My race strategy for all three test was to mark Valverde (pre-race favourite) for as long as possible with all 8 riders and potentially sprint for the win.
Result of first test among my riders:
1-2: 85/65 MO/HIL at 6th and 7th overall 47 seconds down on Valverde (winner)
3-5: 75/75 MO/HIL at 3-4 min. down on Valverde.
6-8: 65/85 MO/HIL at 5-8 min. down on Valverde.
Result of second test:
This was probably the most interesting test since the attributes are relatively more realistically distributed.
Among my riders:
80/70 MO/Hill: 1st and 3rd
75/75 MO/Hill: 2nd, 6th and 7th
70/80 MO/Hill: 4th, 5th and 8th
All in same time apart from the 8th who was 37 seconds down on the others.
Result of third test:
In generel the riders were too strong to gather much meaningful insights from this test. I did this twice because on the first attempt only 1 rider got in the breakaway and consequently the pace in the peloton was very low. This lead to all my riders having plenty of energy left at the end and I took the first 8 places in the sprint, which was a complete toss up. The winner was the guy with the highest daily form and thus highest bonus to SPR and ACC.
The second attempt was won by an 80/80 rider, followed by 75/85 and 85/75 in third s.t., which again suggests a random toss up. The rest came in at lower placings with the same time apart from one 75/85 rider with a bad RDC. It may be possible to produce different results if you were only controlling 1 or few riders rather than an entire team of race favourtites: I just had them mark Valverde and then set them all at 86-88 effort for the last 8km approx. and started sprinting at 1km to and this produced no significant differences with these stats.
It was noticeable though that the 75/85 riders had spent more energy than the rest towards the end of the race, so if the pace is sufficiently high over the course even 75/85 might suffer from a too low MO value. Based on these tests my estimate would be that in LBL the Hill stat does not become more important than the Mountain stat before you have at least 75-78 MO.
The idea behind this change is very sensible imo, but in practice it doesn't quite work as intended as MO seems too influential in hilly stages.
Edited by Humlesnur on 20-09-2016 21:36
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| Lachi |
Posted on 26-06-2016 11:44
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Why don't you try to compare riders like Nibali, Contador, Froome, Rodriguez and Aru. They are all climbers but have different abilities. So try to adjust their stats and see how they do on the climbs in the Giro, TdF and Vuelta. The goal should be to make them behave close to reality.
Then you do the same with hill specialists on the hilly classics.
At the end, you can compare how the mountain specialists with their adjusted stats compare to the hilly riders with their adjusted stats on the opposite terrain. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 14:16
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 26-06-2016 14:21
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Played LBL with BMC (single race). Gilbert (top fitness + Race fitness +1)finished 47th at 8m..
It have to be rebalanced completely. On a climb in the start of the race Van Garderen had 110 BPM and Gilbert 135 BPM. Is this a joke PCM? |
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| aftershave82 |
Posted on 07-07-2016 14:35
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Balance (should) comes with STA/END and RES. While climbers has more resistance, they can go up longer on dots, where red bar not in use, which happens on long climbs like on mountain stages. Punchers gets their advantages on short climbs about higher stamina and better sprint. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 07-07-2016 14:46
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And what do you do with a rider like Tim Wellens? Not super explosive, but can set a very hard pace on a hill. Too much altitude will kill him though, so you can't make him a climber either.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Rasmusen |
Posted on 08-07-2016 10:53
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Matti23 wrote:
Played LBL with BMC (single race). Gilbert (top fitness + Race fitness +1)finished 47th at 8m..
It have to be rebalanced completely. On a climb in the start of the race Van Garderen had 110 BPM and Gilbert 135 BPM. Is this a joke PCM?
Gilbert sucks  |
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| Rory426 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 08:56
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I came here to ask for advice on winning mountain stages with my Pro (79 mountain now, but only 72 hill) and I think this thread explains it. Just used 70% on a summit finish in Tirreno-Adriatico and came 11th against a good field, not perfect but ok, there was a move I maybe shoulda counter-attacked but didn't.
The thing is I do think the balance of those stats needs looking at. Froome (83/78) won the stage but 2nd and 3rd on the same time were Kwiatkowski (76/84) and Alaphillipe (75/81). This was at least 15k of climbing on the summit finish. I think the balance needs looking at by Cyanide in terms of adding in a factor for what is classed as a mountain stage again, or the balance of efforts. |
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| Rory426 |
Posted on 09-07-2016 11:40
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Rory426 wrote:
I came here to ask for advice on winning mountain stages with my Pro (79 mountain now, but only 72 hill) and I think this thread explains it. Just used 70% on a summit finish in Tirreno-Adriatico and came 11th against a good field, not perfect but ok, there was a move I maybe shoulda counter-attacked but didn't.
The thing is I do think the balance of those stats needs looking at. Froome (83/78) won the stage but 2nd and 3rd on the same time were Kwiatkowski (76/84) and Alaphillipe (75/81). This was at least 15k of climbing on the summit finish. I think the balance needs looking at by Cyanide in terms of adding in a factor for what is classed as a mountain stage again, or the balance of efforts.
All that said, any tips for how to be better on the climbs? I'm getting left behind by better riders by using dot effort, even though I'm balancing it to drain the yellow just at the top. THis worked a treat for me in PCM14. |
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| Screamin |
Posted on 13-07-2016 01:55
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Is there a degree of incline that separates hill and mountain stats at all, or is it only based on your effort above 2% (not flat)? I haven't been able to find it, but I seem to remember someone putting in a guide that around 5% was hill and above was mo, but that would only matter for how the stage was classified in the old system. I think above 5% would be a decent mark to separate them, so dot70 would use hill stat until it went above 5%, then you would have to crank up the effort if you have a better hill stat.
I like the new system, hill specialists can't hang on for more than 5k or so (at least when I control them), but mountain specialists can just ramp up the effort and eventually drop the wannabe climbers. This however is not always the case with the AI, hill specialists seem to be able keep up in a massive effort by the peloton at the end of stage, then attack, attack again, and maybe one more time, then finish with the best climbers on fairly long climbs 7-10k, a little frustrating sometimes. |
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| Screamin |
Posted on 13-07-2016 02:18
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One more thing, recuperation could be better. It nice to make the bigger guys (hill specialists) work harder to get the most from their stats, but in a breakaway you can't use 80+ dot to keep up with the others all the time on short climbs and hope to finish well. It shouldn't take 30k to recover from a hard effort sitting on in a break at 60-65 dot, and of course down hill! |
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