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Discussion about new hill/mnt stat
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 21-06-2016 16:28
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Directeur Sportif
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my experience so far is that the AI turns on the speed on every single climb, even on as flat categorized stages...so yeah, hilly riders will be more explosive but have it much harder to get to the last clkimb than before
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| sierramike |
Posted on 21-06-2016 21:58
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Under 23
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(scroll down if you want it short)
So now Ladies & Gentlemen ,sportsfants everywhere ...
It's time for the race ,...
The test Mountain vs Hill,....
in 2 hilly classics ...
Amstel Gold Race & LBL !!!!
All the contestants have all stats at 65,except for
Team Billy Hilly wich have hill at 82 ,wow eeh ! & mo at 58
Team Hanna Montana with hill at 58 & mo at 82
Team Average Joe with Hill & Mo at 70.
I play with an all 65 team.
(Thanks to Lachi's editor this took only a couple of minutes to set up.)
First up Amstel Gold Race,(used to be about 6% Mo before);hang on to your seats...
The game sees all 8 hillies as the top favorites,no surprise.
A breakaway forms,none of the special teams mentioned participate.
All of Hillies are in front some of them relaying,favorites,makes sense.More of note ,all 6 guys of Montana all the way in the back(dunno why only 6 participate).
AI thinks "we are crap" & I guess that way AI ai sorts the peleton as uber to crap for their position in the peleton.This is a bit of the problem for the test as you know hanging in the back is a disadvantage:catching up,so more irregular racing,more exhausting & of course breaks will get them behind even when they are fresh.I think they won't be winning because of that.
Also I think Hillies beeing the crap at climing at slower pace ,thus almost the whole race they won't catch the breakaway.
And right so,the peleton comes in at 13 minutes behind,some protected Hilly gets first place behind escapees ,cos peleton pace was slow & he can go all out on last hill.Averge joes behind that.Not great a test really.but interesting none the less,but it gets better...
Aaah LBL ,
the big difference in this test is Nibali with his crappy 58 hill gets in a breakaway with a guy of mine & 6 others.
Rest of Montana same problem as previously they hang at the back while easily following while others drop,they have an selfesteem issue.
Now immediatly it's Obvious Nibali gives his companions a hard time,mine included,we can't relay properly against him & they blame me guy non relaying while every1 doesn't (imo a big design issue).So Nibali starts attacking about 120 times.This has me thinking this will wear him out ,undermining my test BUT the advantage of high mountain is so big now ,he finally get away & wins solo with 8' ahead,easy for the guy with 58 hill.This lead was some 13 ' ,but when they final Hilly was done with his crap relaying ,fresher guys took over.
My guys were fresh too,while even the protected Hillies with only 7 less Mo dropped.Rest of breakaway got caught,wore down by Nibali & fresh peleton in the end.Had 1 attacking near end,couldn't hold myself,he came in second.
So here are the results of lbl :
The guy with 58 hill owned LBL
The guys with 82 Hill sucked bigtime:best spot :# 118 th
In conclusion,for you guys who think in a race with lots of short climbs ,hill is the big thing not mountain now : wrong.
The big favorites with 82 hill vs the rest with 65 or less ended with at 118 tops.
The idea of slow vs fast Climbing bad : no
Is it better then previous :no.
Does changing give a lot of issues : yes
Is this change a good thing : no
If it ain't broke ,don't fix it with an equal idea & very bad implementation.
Now I might do test on cob classics & San Remo & prove how they messed those up too now,but there's too much text here already...
Edited by sierramike on 22-06-2016 09:29
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 21-06-2016 22:06
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World Champion
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I like the idea but it clearly doesn't work. Maybe give hill more importance when attacking and sprinting on a climb, but in dot it doesn't work well.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 21-06-2016 22:36
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
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As one of the main statmakers for the DB this is something myself and the others need to investigate in more detail and I'll have the time hopefully very soon to do so.
In the meantime I think if anybody here is playing with the PCM16 DB and the latest stats, the best idea would be to put any strange/new findings here, which will help a lot to see how these climbing changes are/could effect gameplay and making it unrealistic with the stat matrix that we have at the moment.
The worst case scenario for us, would be having to recalculate all the stats involved which seem to be mtn, hill, acc and res of the riders.............. which of course would take a lot of time.
If things are not that bad, then just the changes where needed which would be much quicker.
At the moment there is a whole load of speculation and confusuion, but hopefully in the next few weeks we can get to the bottom of it.
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| Lachi |
Posted on 22-06-2016 19:09
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
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@sierramike: Thank you for taking the time to test it. But the game was not designed to have only 82/65, 65/82 and 70/70 riders so the outcome must be strange. If you want to test again, you could run those two stages multiple times with the official DB (without random fitness) and then compare the outcome. After 10 or 20 runs, we should start to see a pattern which rider types are needed to perform well in either race. |
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 22-06-2016 20:38
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Amateur
Posts: 22
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It's one of the worst ideas ever in the history of Cycling Manager.
Slow en Fast climbing
Climbing is not fast or slow but long or short and steep or not steep.
So you may not take pace as reference. It's totally ridiculous, you have to take the climbs as reference. Unfortunately it's very hard to design , so you take the old system that worked pretty good.
Ooh boy |
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| togo95 |
Posted on 22-06-2016 20:47
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Domestique
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Matti23 wrote:
Climbing is not fast or slow but long or short and steep or not steep.
I don't agree with the second. There is no need to consider non-steep climbing in regards to the MO/HIL stats, since the limiting case is already controlled by FL stat.
What I think Cyanide had in mind with this change is the aerobic (slow climbing) and anaerobic (fast climbing) effort, which are essentially different and thus justify two different stats.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 14:38
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 22-06-2016 20:58
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Amateur
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togo95 wrote:
Matti23 wrote:
Climbing is not fast or slow but long or short and steep or not steep.
I don't agree with the second. There is no need to consider non-steep climbing in regards to the MO/HIL stats, since the limiting case is already controlled by FL stat.
What I think Cyanide had in mind with this change is the aerobic (slow climbing) and anaerobic (fast climbing) effort, which are essentially different and thus justify two different stats.
Yeah but the problem is the hilly races. Slow climbing is irrelevant in hilly races. Gilbert (in real) shall save more energy than a pure climber on the steep hills on a low effort (he has more power). |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 22-06-2016 21:38
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Grand Tour Champion
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Matti23 wrote:
Gilbert (in real) shall save more energy than a pure climber on the steep hills on a low effort (he has more power).
Can prove this statement with an scientific explanation. |
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 22-06-2016 22:21
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Amateur
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Lachi wrote:
Matti23 wrote:
Gilbert (in real) shall save more energy than a pure climber on the steep hills on a low effort (he has more power).
Can prove this statement with an scientific explanation.
Let me say it otherwise. When Quintana and Gilbert take a hill in Flanders or La Redoute (1.5 km climb), at 60%, I think Gilbert is first at the top. Between the 2 its a difference of +- 100 watt.. in efforts of 2-5 minutes its in the advantage of the puncher. |
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| sierramike |
Posted on 22-06-2016 22:57
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Under 23
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Climbing is not fast or slow but long or short and steep or not steep.
Agree and that's excatcly what the old system was :long vs short climing ratio calculated and used as Hi/Mo for the whole stage.
Also the part of having a fl/x ratio on a steeper climb is a good(although 5% barrier they changed it to 2 years ago is too high for me).
We have a hill near my village,so if i climb up slowly i can call it a mountain ?No,its ' the height,thus lenght & steepness.
Yeah but the problem is the hilly races. Slow climbing is irrelevant in hilly races. Gilbert (in real) shall save more energy than a pure climber on the steep hills on a low effort (he has more power).
No Gilbert doesn't save more energy,it's not about wattage ,it's about wattage per kilogram and about recuperation after an effort to prefent acidification of muscles.Gilbert,Sagan,Van Avermaet weight to much compared to Froome & the like.
Lachi wrote:
@sierramike: Thank you for taking the time to test it. But the game was not designed to have only 82/65, 65/82 and 70/70 riders so the outcome must be strange. If you want to test again, you could run those two stages multiple times with the official DB (without random fitness) and then compare the outcome. After 10 or 20 runs, we should start to see a pattern which rider types are needed to perform well in either race.
Wasn't that much trouble,fun actually.The use of more extreme stats is usefull for eliminating factors as RDC & luck .
With lesser difference ,sure guys with less Mo could keep up,but they will be tired out more to get a benefit of more Hi. Only in some ideal circumstance of few crappy escapees and only climb at the end,I can give them the edge.
But really the test result were soooooo terrible huge differences and even more clear then that when you saw it in race.It was not really 82 vs 65,it was 58 Mo vs 65 Mo ;while the 82 Hi did not do 1 single bit for them,no use at all,they could have had 500 Hill.The peleton rides at say 50-65 effort the first 3/4 of the race,the guys who come up short 7 Mo get dropped 60 km before the end ,even the protected one.
As a second test,I would rather have the guys in my team to observe better ,then I get use less stat difference.This eleminates AI behaviour influence.But for me :
The results couldn't be any clearer.
Edited by sierramike on 22-06-2016 23:50
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| Matti23 |
Posted on 23-06-2016 11:37
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Amateur
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sierramike wrote:
[quote]
Climbing is not fast or slow but long or short and steep or not steep.
Agree and that's excatcly what the old system was :long vs short climing ratio calculated and used as Hi/Mo for the whole stage.
Also the part of having a fl/x ratio on a steeper climb is a good(although 5% barrier they changed it to 2 years ago is too high for me).
We have a hill near my village,so if i climb up slowly i can call it a mountain ?No,its ' the height,thus lenght & steepness.
Yeah but the problem is the hilly races. Slow climbing is irrelevant in hilly races. Gilbert (in real) shall save more energy than a pure climber on the steep hills on a low effort (he has more power).
No Gilbert doesn't save more energy,it's not about wattage ,it's about wattage per kilogram and about recuperation after an effort to prefent acidification of muscles.Gilbert,Sagan,Van Avermaet weight to much compared to Froome & the like.
[quote]
Yeah, but my question is who is faster at 60% of their efforts on a hill of 1-2 km? Quintana or Gilbert. I think honestly Gilbert. |
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| Mathimus |
Posted on 23-06-2016 12:44
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Amateur
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Matti23 wrote:
Yeah, but my question is who is faster at 60% of their efforts on a hill of 1-2 km? Quintana or Gilbert. I think honestly Gilbert.
Your statement doesn't make sens. What means 60% effort in PCM: at equal Resistance stat (if it matters), it is the effort that the rider can sustain for a given time, probably corresping to roughly one hour in real time. 80% is the effort the rider can sustaim for 15min, ... (values are juste rough estimations).
The lenght of the climb you use to test the speed of a rider at a given effort doesn't matter. If you ask Quintana and Gilbert to go at the speed they can keep for one hour at the bottom of la Redoute, or whatever short climb, Quintana will go faster because he is better on a one hour effort. |
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| Dee-Jay |
Posted on 23-06-2016 12:49
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Free Agent
Posts: 129
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Matti23 wrote:
It's one of the worst ideas ever in the history of Cycling Manager.
Slow en Fast climbing
Climbing is not fast or slow but long or short and steep or not steep.
So you may not take pace as reference. It's totally ridiculous, you have to take the climbs as reference. Unfortunately it's very hard to design , so you take the old system that worked pretty good.
Ooh boy
It's an interesting change but one I fully don't see the effects of yet as I haven't played it much.
Speed of climbing is comparable to length of the climb as you can't go up a 15km climb at the same speed as a 1.5km climb. So this could work. The old system approximately worked, but it was an over simplification. A 0.5km climb on a stage marked as a high mountain stage suddenly became a big obstacle for a puncher, whereas obviously IRL it would be easy for them. The game got away with it by the fact that they wouldn't be expected to do well in the stage anyway. |
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| jasperdeman |
Posted on 23-06-2016 15:49
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Amateur
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From a physiological standpoit, the new system seems to make sense to me.
MO stat is related to w/kg at Treshold
HILL stat is related to w/kg at VO2max
GC-riders will have higher Treshold power while Puncheurs have higher VO2max power.
Therefore Gilbert should be able to achieve a higher speed up a mountain then e.g. Froome. But when they have both burned out their VO2max (anearobic energy) Froom will be able to settle in at a higher speed at treshold power and thus, if the mountain is long enough overtake and drop Gilbert. |
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| jasperdeman |
Posted on 23-06-2016 15:53
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And to add to that, if the speed is not high enough up a longer climb, such that Gilbert is able to follow the wheel all the way to the last km, then he should be able to win in real life and also in the game.
I think theoretically that would work great, however, I have yet to see confirmation that the system really works like this. And not like before. |
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| jasperdeman |
Posted on 23-06-2016 15:53
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And to add to that, if the speed is not high enough up a longer climb, such that Gilbert is able to follow the wheel all the way to the last km, then he should be able to win in real life and also in the game.
I think theoretically that would work great, however, I have yet to see confirmation that the system really works like this. And not like before. |
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| TschuuX |
Posted on 23-06-2016 16:34
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in my opinion the new system is good. The old system makes literally no sense. It was like a guy standing at the beginning of a mountain/hill and say " hey this stage is in Hill catergory, sry froom you will suck now!"
Hill and mountain is now similar to flat and sprint.
A sprint is nothing more than riding very fast for a short time on a flat stage.
Hill is the same. Riding up a mountain very fast over a short time.
This is exactly what makes a puncheur a puncheur and a climer a climber.
The problem with the tests above is, that the difference between hill and mountain was ridiculous high. You get the same results with a sprinter with 60 flat. He will tire out before the sprint even starts. So its not a surprise for me that under this conditions the new system will not work. I mean srsly which rider could sprint up a Hill with 82 hill and is ridiculously bad in the Mountains (65 f. example) Even if the two stats are closer together (75/80; 77/77; 80/75) its still a huge difference if you have 75 hill or 80 hill when it comes to the last sprint.
There are other important stats that can seperate the two different rider styles.
For a long stagerace you need recovery, Timetrial, resilence etc. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 23-06-2016 17:02
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Tour de France Champion
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I agree with TschuuX
I'm only worried about the ManGame database when it'll use PCM16 to run races, as balances are sometimes way off there! |
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| sierramike |
Posted on 23-06-2016 21:11
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Under 23
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TschuuX wrote:
The problem with the tests above is, that the difference between hill and mountain was ridiculous high. I mean srsly which rider could sprint up a Hill with 82 hill and is ridiculously bad in the Mountains (65 f. example) Even if the two stats are closer together (75/80; 77/77; 80/75) its still a huge difference if you have 75 hill or 80 hill when it comes to the last sprint.
It wasn't 82 vs 65.It was 58 vs rest of peleton 65.
So I did test 12 teams Mo 75-Hi 70 & 13 other way.
The first test :the first Hil guy came at 13'58
Second test,there was a hiller at #6 & #17,probably had +5 rdc wich of course gives them 75 Mo too.
But if you want to tell yourself Cyanide wouldn't release changes without everything perfectly balanced, go ahead.
Like I said before if I walk up up a hill more slowly it doesn't make it a mountain.
TschuuX wrote:
It was like a guy standing at the beginning of a mountain/hill and say " hey this stage is in Hill catergory, sry froom you will suck now!"
You don't make sense.It should be "standing at the beginning on a HILL,you will suck vs Gilbert".But again,test results show he will do alot better in PCM16 then 15 on hill stages,while LBL2016: 112 place at 10'
Just test yourself ,get the normal DB ,choose customm team,& get 4 of the guys with the big difference between Hi&Mo ,you will see .. |
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