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Discussion about new hill/mnt stat
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| Lachi |
Posted on 21-06-2016 13:02
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Grand Tour Champion
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sierramike wrote:
I can understand where there coming from with this change,but now I need mountain stat in ronde van Vlaanderen & such ...
The only problem is that you are used to the old system. If they would have called the two stats SC (slow climbing) and FC (fast climbing) you would have never written this sentence.
The new system has no mountain stat and no hill stat, there are two new climbing stats. If the wording is a problem, you could change it in the Local.cdb |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 21-06-2016 13:16
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World Champion
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Well, the fact that these changes are not adressed in the game at all does not help with understanding it, same as not changing the name of stats then, if they are no more in fact mountain and hill abilities...
How could somebody not browsing the forums in detail possibly know this? 
Thanks to you and some others, we can at least know what is going on with these changes.
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| danielito |
Posted on 21-06-2016 13:22
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Amateur
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Lachi wrote:
sierramike wrote:
I can understand where there coming from with this change,but now I need mountain stat in ronde van Vlaanderen & such ...
The only problem is that you are used to the old system. If they would have called the two stats SC (slow climbing) and FC (fast climbing) you would have never written this sentence.
The new system has no mountain stat and no hill stat, there are two new climbing stats. If the wording is a problem, you could change it in the Local.cdb
Wow! In theory, this looks very, very promising. Maybe DB makers should really consider a change on wording, (CL S & CL F). It makes sense from a realism point too, a more complete racer like Valverde can now go for a L-B-L win and GC wins, since his Mo and Hill stats are pretty similar (around 80 in most dbs).
Does anybody know how the STA & RES stats work in this new system?
Thx D |
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| sierramike |
Posted on 21-06-2016 13:36
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Under 23
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Dee-Jay wrote:
way more realistic than the old system IMHO.
For the concerns about the Mountain stat becoming important in Flanders, wouldn't keeping a high pace up the short climbs wreck the stage racers?
No,NOT high intensity, because there are lots of hills and you can't go all of them up sprinting,you wear yourself out.Look at previous editions,riders would go for ex. in Amstel Gold Race 30 hills up at "slow Climbing" whatever and go full on the last two.This would make punchers all drained out & minutes behind.For flanders it's not about stage riders winning it,it's about northern classic guys with or without stats,guys like Thomas with 77 Mo will own the rest & sagan& van avermaet will own Terpstra & van marcke with there 50 something.It's a balance issue i'm sure devs didn't think about ,pretty sure hill/mountain stages won't have the right balance yet.
Now this edition devs allready tweaked ai to go full out on all those hills ,so yeah the punchers win.But here's the problem now:This game (& real racing) is all about riding regular: if you rush up those hills a little less crazy & easy catch up to the front again in the slow effort in betweens ,you can win easy with you 62 hill rider against 78 hillers:cyanide race 1 won & game over ,thanks for playing.
This change made the ai & the game too easy now.now matter how you call the stat. |
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| sierramike |
Posted on 21-06-2016 13:53
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Under 23
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The only problem is that you are used to the old system. If they would have called the two stats SC (slow climbing) and FC (fast climbing) you would have never written this sentence.
Then I would prefer to call it "sprinting uphill" ,at effort 90,that's more accurate.
There used to be stages for pure hillers and pure mountain stats guys & stages for those in between,now for the first ones ,they are going to be much rarer,more wins for the all rounders,and less for the high mountain guys ,it's inevitable.
Not saying the old system is better in principle,but it's not worse and the main thing for a game like this ,the rest of the game (ai,database,generation of riders) isn't fit for this.
Makes me wonder ,when actually sprinting in the end of a mountain,it used to be a percentage of mo/spr ,wich is it now? (btw glad you're back in game Lachi). |
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| michou |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:03
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Junior Rider
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Seems weird for me... 
So for example, a rider with 55 Mo and 85 Hill, will die at 70% effort, but kill them all at 90% on the same climb... ? |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:05
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Tour de France Champion
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michou wrote:
Seems weird for me...
So for example, a rider with 55 Mo and 85 Hill, will die at 70% effort, but kill them all at 90% on the same climb... ?
Only until his gas runs out. On 90, he'll only keep it up a short time, hence the hill ability: short, explosive efforts. |
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| michou |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:13
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Junior Rider
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When and how is considered a climb in this game ? (angle % ? length ?) |
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| togo95 |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:18
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Domestique
Posts: 442
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michou wrote:
When and how is considered a climb in this game ? (angle % ? length ?)
I don't think the game makes an assessment of what is a climb and what isn't. What it does though is that it recognizes the last ascent of a stage. For a climb to be considered as such, it needs to be at least 1 km @ 7% (roughly, I don't know exactly how it is calculated).
edit: Now that I think about it, maybe it does for AI purposes (when to attack etc.), but that is pure guess.
Edited by togo95 on 21-06-2016 14:32
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:25
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World Champion
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With every post in this thread, i am more and more confused. 
So we have hill and mountain stat, but the climbs are not adressed as hills or mountains?
I have to set high effort if i have better puncher than climber, but he will loose energy quickly because of the high effort?
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| michou |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:45
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So if I understand well...
With my example, a rider with 50 MO and 85 Hill.
On this stage:
During the whole race, in the peloton, who climb at low speed, this rider will suffer as hell, but... at the end of the stage, when the speed is quick on the final climb of 5.4km, he will outperform them all... that's what we are talking about ? |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 14:27
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 21-06-2016 14:59
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5,4km is too long for 90 dot
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| bufu2k |
Posted on 21-06-2016 15:12
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Amateur
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What about attacks at climbs?
Does here count the hill stat or what? |
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| Lamba |
Posted on 21-06-2016 15:13
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Stagiare
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michou wrote:
So if I understand well...
With my example, a rider with 50 MO and 85 Hill.
On this stage:
During the whole race, in the peloton, who climb at low speed, this rider will suffer as hell, but... at the end of the stage, when the speed is quick on the final climb of 5.4km, he will outperform them all... that's what we are talking about ?
Just think of it this way.
Mountain; Long and monotone.
Hills; Short and bursty.
So to be a real threat on mountaineous stages, you need both mountain, hills and acceleration (and down hill) to technically be a complete rider.
You use acceleration to accelerate for attacks. Then depending on your effort after the attacks, you use mountain stat (<70), a mix of hill and mountain (71-89) or pure hill stat (>90).
This is purely related to what stats you use. You still tire faster at 90, but your rider (with high hills) will be able to climb longer at a higher pace, compared to a guy with worse hill stats.
For an IRL comparison I'm thinking Froome and Valverde or Quintana. Froome has the mountain stat to keep climbing for a very long time at a decent effort (70-75 is a rather high effort if you do it for a longer period of time), while Quintana and Valverde can more often do attacks at higher effort, but for a shorter period of time. So at a finish where it's like the last 10km, Valverde or Quintana can better win the stage, but Froome will be able to ride up in a decent pace still and with a decent amount of energy due to his high mountain stat.
How many of you go far above 80 when climbing anyways? Doesn't it make really good sense that to climb at a higher pace, you need the explosiveness that most hilly climbers can generate?
I personally mainly climb at 62-80 effort, above 80 and my guy litterally dies and fall of a cliff. |
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| michou |
Posted on 21-06-2016 15:14
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Junior Rider
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With the scale 5.4 Km is pretty quick. 85% + gel = easy win 
It seems it's better to train Puncher to win mountain stage now, at least if you wait the final climb to manage your victory.
Perhaps attack very early in the race with a pure climber and never go above 70% is viable, need to test. |
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| Lamba |
Posted on 21-06-2016 15:17
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
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michou wrote:
With the scale 5.4 Km is pretty quick. 85% + gel = easy win
It seems it's better to train Puncher to win mountain stage now, at least if you wait the final climb to manage your victory.
Perhaps attack very early in the race with a pure climber and never go above 70% is viable, need to test.
In the big tours, the last climb won't be just 3-5km or so. It's often 12-20km climb to finish the race. If you're a puncher, you will either use A LOT of energy or simply not be able to follow.
I'm halfways through the Giro d'Italia on my pro cyclist in 3rd season and even with 79 mountain and 77 hill, there's no way I can follow a guy like Quintana at the end.
I'm really banking on getting my flat to max (70'ish) and hills (81 I think) as my guy will then use less energy at higher speed on flat road and will be able to ride better at higher effort in the finals.
But it's mainly cosmetic with the hill stat, 'cause it's very possible to win the grand tours without ever winning a stage. |
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| bufu2k |
Posted on 21-06-2016 15:21
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michou wrote:
So if I understand well...
With my example, a rider with 50 MO and 85 Hill.
On this stage:
During the whole race, in the peloton, who climb at low speed, this rider will suffer as hell, but... at the end of the stage, when the speed is quick on the final climb of 5.4km, he will outperform them all... that's what we are talking about ?
Won't the AI made speed at the second/third last Mountain to outpace riders with high hill/low mountain stats? |
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| togo95 |
Posted on 21-06-2016 15:23
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Domestique
Posts: 442
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To be fair, the information this discussion is based on is from earlier in the year. The exact way this is handled in the game could have been changed since then due to the testing that was done.
So it is good as a flavour of what kind of behaviour to expect from these two stats, but imo not enough to make conclusions about what is the best way to play or train riders in PCM 2016. For that one would need either more experience with playing it, some useful tests or more insider info about how it actually works in the released version of the game.
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| titleist82 |
Posted on 21-06-2016 16:08
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Breakaway Specialist
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i did a small test, the weird thing is that an 85mo 55hill rider can't go higher than 157-8 bpm uphill !!! seems like cyanide capped the maximum effort uphill |
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| Daniano |
Posted on 21-06-2016 16:20
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Under 23
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If the beta forum discussion is the only source, you are a bit wrong. There should be no pure HILL:
<70 Effort is pure MO
85 Effort is 50/50
100 Effort would be pure HILL
but even freire was not 100% sure about that. |
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