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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| Fresh D |
Posted on 29-03-2016 22:46
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Free Agent
Posts: 104
Joined: 08-12-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Thanks for the database with Demoitie.
Just one suggestion to reduce the huge time gaps on mountain stages and to have a smoother stat matrix without altering too much:
Reduce the mountain stat for Froome, Quintana, Contador and Nibali to -1.
Aru and Landa are on par with Contador and Landa, i think.
I noticed that the resistance stat is very mighty in this years game, almost the same or even more affect than MO and HI in my opinion.
Has anyone done tests with that on a mountain?
A rider with 80MO/75RES and another rider with 79MO/76RES, who is faster on top of the mountain while consuming the whole yellow bar? |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-03-2016 22:59
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Fresh D wrote:
Thanks for the database with Demoitie.
Just one suggestion to reduce the huge time gaps on mountain stages and to have a smoother stat matrix without altering too much:
Reduce the mountain stat for Froome, Quintana, Contador and Nibali to -1.
Aru and Landa are on par with Contador and Landa, i think.
I noticed that the resistance stat is very mighty in this years game, almost the same or even more affect than MO and HI in my opinion.
Has anyone done tests with that on a mountain?
A rider with 80MO/75RES and another rider with 79MO/76RES, who is faster on top of the mountain while consuming the whole yellow bar?
The mountain stat concept has often been discussed and I personally have not done any mtn/res tests but I'm sure that both Matt and SGDanny probably have, the two members of the team that probably know how the stats work best. But I would say that a number of options and scenarios with this stat could work. I know for PCM16 that there will be some changes to climbing anyway.
Strangely enough I find RES in the game works reasonably well and in the matrix there has hardly been any changes in terms of increasing it for the top riders, the only riders that have had any real increases have been riders with say RES in the 60's that have performed quite well or a rider that has gone hard solo irl to win a race etc. but there has been no general increase at the top of the stat.
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| Fresh D |
Posted on 29-03-2016 23:24
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Free Agent
Posts: 104
Joined: 08-12-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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I wanted to say resisistance as a stat has a huge impact.
Van Avermaet and Gilbert with 70MO often stay very long with the favourite pack mainly because of their resisistance and riders like Valls with 75MO but only 67RES drop faster on a mountain.
But if Cyanide change the stat matrix and engine for the next game then it's not necessary to change or test this.
Resistance is more a "form"/"shape" stat for me , than a true rider attribute. I mean, what's the point in having an extra stat for the yellow bar, when the plain, mountain and hill stat already influence the yellow bar consumption? |
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 30-03-2016 12:24
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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RES is the hardest stat to get right in Cyanides matrix and as said above the difference between small numbers do have an impact on the AI. I've always seen to compare the real life cycling to the game by the Resistance stat for both punchers, climbers and cobblers. For all these in the game the Resistance stat tells how long a rider can hold a high effort and then stats like MO, Hill and COB tell you how good a rider does a specific terrain
So when I see a rider being consistent it has nothing to do with the resistance stat, but how long that right is able to maintain an effort on a terrain is where the resistance gets in for both AI and the user.
I've actually done some testing with this and my conclusion was that riders with the same mountain stat, seemed to only really have a difference with the RES stat being 3+. However it seemed not accurate for every terrain, where cobble actually has the highest difference with a resistance stat only having 1+
EDIT : that said the other stats does also have a difference on what a RES stat should be for a specific rider
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 30-03-2016 12:27
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Didn't we have a pcm version a few years ago where all riders finished together on mountain stages? Resistance is indeed a hard stat to get right, I usualy try to raise it evenly when raising other stats so the good riders will always be the best. Maybe it should be eliminated alltogether, because as you say, main stats should be the key.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 30-03-2016 20:56
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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sgdanny wrote:
RES is the hardest stat to get right in Cyanides matrix and as said above the difference between small numbers do have an impact on the AI. I've always seen to compare the real life cycling to the game by the Resistance stat for both punchers, climbers and cobblers. For all these in the game the Resistance stat tells how long a rider can hold a high effort and then stats like MO, Hill and COB tell you how good a rider does a specific terrain
So when I see a rider being consistent it has nothing to do with the resistance stat, but how long that right is able to maintain an effort on a terrain is where the resistance gets in for both AI and the user.
I've actually done some testing with this and my conclusion was that riders with the same mountain stat, seemed to only really have a difference with the RES stat being 3+. However it seemed not accurate for every terrain, where cobble actually has the highest difference with a resistance stat only having 1+
EDIT : that said the other stats does also have a difference on what a RES stat should be for a specific rider
thank you
can you explain what tafiolmo said in the page before about fighter? |
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 30-03-2016 21:07
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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can't see what he said about fighters, link?
but in short Fighter basically just tells how much the rider attacks and is combined with Acceleration what tells how aggressive a rider is.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 30-03-2016 21:12
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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sgdanny wrote:
can't see what he said about fighters, link?
but in short Fighter basically just tells how much the rider attacks and is combined with Acceleration what tells how aggressive a rider is.
i think it's this
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 05:19
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Bot Agent
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 30-03-2016 21:35
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@The Guy....
Sorry didn't see your question earlier.
Well it's the most 'behaviour style' stat of the game as it partially influences the morning breakaway and how long a rider can survive, challenge for KOM points and most importantly which riders make those secondary attacks later in the race a distance from the finish line.
It becomes more detailed when you can combine it with other stats. For example a rider like De Gendt would have a high FS and combined with his high RES makes him an ideal rider to attack from a long distance or hold off chasers, obviously he would be limited by the main stat of the terrain he's on but as he's a multi-terrain rider he benefits a lot here.
With a ACC type rider like Dan Martin the FS combined with his high ACC is great for attacking and building up a lead over others over short distances, whereas the opposite of this would be somebody like Gerrans who operates with low FS as he's more likely to always follow than attack.
@FreshD
Well the RES stat is not really a 'form/shape' stat at all, it's actually a factual stat in that once it's defined, it only applies to certain riders who actually can ride like this. For example high RES riders like Tony Martin, Cancellara, Froome and Landa etc can push harder than most on their favoured terrain when they want to. If their race form is good then they'll RES really well, if not then they won't RES well.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 30-03-2016 21:41
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 30-03-2016 21:41
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Notice
As RES is the most difficult/subjective stat around, it's going to be revised fully for the next update in April and this is the formula that I've drawn up and has been approved by some of the team members to work towards.
This is just a guideline, as there will be quite a few riders that will fall into the two areas to a degree and it will be upto the statmakers to decide what to do in that case.
Riders that should have high RES:
Mtn climbers that can attack and then keep a big tempo going for a long period of time like Froome, Quintana, Landa and Contador.
Riders than can go hard for long periods of time on flat terrain in general like T.Martin and Thomas or any rider that has a history of winning stages by holding off a leading group or peloton.
Cobble riders that can really go hard solo or with a small group after attacking like Cancellara.
TT riders over longer TT’s like Kiryenka and the other leading TT riders that can maintain a big tempo, even riders with lower TT like Bialoblocki and Coppel if their form is good should be be high in this as well as they go well over long TT’s .
Multi-terrain riders like De Gendt that despite having a high FS can still go very hard in any terrain.
Certain puncheurs like Gilbert and Kwiat that can go hard on rolling terrain and hills and win races like Amstel.
Certain strongmen that find themselves in a winning position from a break like Lindemann in La Vuelta last year, who beat superior climbers should have good RES. Even riders like Sagan would qualify here if he found himself in this kind of position.
Riders that shouldn’t have high RES:
The majority of riders that despite having high flat or mtn, who spend most of their time working as domestiques. Some riders though have a certain amount of freedom in certain races, so this needs to thought out.
Natural sprinters and leadouts that only sprint like Cav and Kittel.
TT riders that are better on shorter distances.
Punchy attackers with high acc that look to gain their advantage over a short distance to hold off and then win, think typical Ardennes riders like Purito and D.Martin. Certain riders like Valverde fit into this category but would need higher RES.
Other climbers that look to attack over a short distance like Chaves.
Certain mtn climbers that just kind of sit there tapping out a steady tempo that is not exactly explosive like Uran.
As always any opinions on what else should be considered are welcome.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 30-03-2016 21:46
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 30-03-2016 21:58
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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thank you this is fascinating |
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| Fresh D |
Posted on 31-03-2016 00:21
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Free Agent
Posts: 104
Joined: 08-12-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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@tafiolmo
Does the fighter stat really have an impact on 3D-Mode?
My understanding from Kent's trials for PCM 2014 was that resistance only affects the rate in which the yellow bar decreases. High RES rider have more "yellow bar units" left to consume than riders with low RES so to speak. MO/PL effect the heartrate based on the gradient of the road- The heart rate affects the amount of the units that are erased or regenerated of the yellow bar.
It will be interestig to see what Cyanide will do with their system for the next pcm. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-03-2016 10:09
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Fresh D wrote:
@tafiolmo
Does the fighter stat really have an impact on 3D-Mode?
My understanding from Kent's trials for PCM 2014 was that resistance only affects the rate in which the yellow bar decreases. High RES rider have more "yellow bar units" left to consume than riders with low RES so to speak. MO/PL effect the heartrate based on the gradient of the road- The heart rate affects the amount of the units that are erased or regenerated of the yellow bar.
It will be interestig to see what Cyanide will do with their system for the next pcm.
As I only really ever play 3D mode then yes it does. The best way to test imo is the easiest way and that is to check the FS of riders on the attack. In the morning break some riders with high FS get into it, but there are quite a few others that have a low FS that are there as well so that operates on a random basis, which is quite realistic imo. It's in the later attacks that you notice the higher FS riders in action going early but of course if this is near the point when race favourites start attacking then the riders with high FS become less noticeable.
Also take into consideration with the FS, is that it also takes into account the amount of times a rider will attack throughout a race compared to others. For example I'va had races where riders like De Gendt and Barta have attacked constantly on different stages and have lasted a long time but of course you also have to take into consideration their main stats too. So as said before it's a behaviour style stat as opposed to a rider's ability.
The easiest way to check without actually doing more detailed tests, is just look at the FS of riders who are going aggressively and it normally has 75 and above.
Yes RES does all of those things and when combined with the rider's main stats will have him lasting a lot longer on his favoured terrain when he puts a big effort in. For some riders this is easy to calculate but for others it's a problem, especially with riders like Thomas and Dumoulin who are multi-terrain riders and are high in most stats. For these type of riders it's a juggling act sometimes between keeping certain main stats high with their high RES as well, but if they're too high then they'll be much better than in real life, similar to the Sagan problem with the stats as well.
As said before Kent as done tests on PCM14 and I know Matt and SGDanny have done quite a few tests over the years as well. I've done no actual tests myself though with FS and RES and what I know is either from them or paying close observation to how it behaves in different races, which sometimes can be more helpful than pure testing.
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 31-03-2016 10:16
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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I just have to make clear on how I'm sure I know what I'm talking about. When doing the JESGD database, Jesleyh was in close contact with Cyanide, as we were doing the database during the beta phase of PCM15. Here we got to know how the stat matrix limits works best and transfered that to our database. So we kept a close contact with some Cyanide ppl and got a detailed description on how the stats work.
Other than this we also got to know how potential was going to work and how it would seem most realistic for a rider to get a certain potential. Jesleyh then informed me on how he got told the game worked best and helped me transfer that to my Next Generation DB.
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| haasje33 |
Posted on 31-03-2016 11:26
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Sprinter
Posts: 1679
Joined: 08-08-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Bugfix Vuillermoz and Myngheer
Here's a quick bugfix, which fixes the HI stat of Vuillermoz and deletes R.I.P. Myngheer (RLM). It removes Aaen (Coloquick)'s double and it also corrects the frame brand of Tre Berg - Bianchi.
Put it in Documents\Pro Cycling Manager 2015\Mod\Database and overwrite the existing database.
Edited by matt17br on 31-03-2016 12:18
Inactive due to personal reasons.
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| irdalopez |
Posted on 31-03-2016 16:20
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Under 23
Posts: 75
Joined: 06-04-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Oh my god! Yesterday update and today Politt, Pedersen, Bohli, Lutsenko, Wiśniowski, Küng are amazing. Tafiolmo hard work!  |
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| DS7SN13 |
Posted on 31-03-2016 16:53
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Under 23
Posts: 84
Joined: 16-08-2015
PCM$: 700.00
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Bodnar should be the one upgraded, he just beat Tony Martin in the TT when T.Martin was seen as the clear favourite to win! |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 31-03-2016 17:22
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Irdalopez Thanks and Bohli seems to be getting better and better and after the TT today will have even more upgrades.
DS7SN13 Today was mostly prologue (70%) and Bodnar is only 2 points below Martin in prologue, so what he did today is easily possible in game. Bodnar though over the last year or so has been one of the most consistent TT riders in the world and has almost gone unnoticed by a lot of people. So he's more likely to also get an upgrade at some time if he continues like this.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 31-03-2016 17:33
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| haasje33 |
Posted on 01-04-2016 12:57
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Sprinter
Posts: 1679
Joined: 08-08-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Today, PCM.daily's Database Team released the latest update for the 2016 Database: the "+1 Update". It has some interesting stat updates, which we applied after some very useful and widely agreed suggestions in the Stat discussion thread.
Inactive due to personal reasons.
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| Thatguyeveryonehates |
Posted on 01-04-2016 20:37
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Domestique
Posts: 447
Joined: 01-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Update +1: cancellara's ego is only 85. should be at least 130.
sagan acceleration still too high. plz nerf. |
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