Avin Wargunnson wrote:
A) This attack has very likely nothing to do with "problems in Syria".
B) Nobody will call you a nazi here. Or you have different experience?
A) With the problems in syria, I mean the war, which leads to many refugees, who cause alot of trouble in germany. Also, I think it's no coincedence, that all these terror problems have started since the end of last year, where the problems in syria became intense.
B) Yes, I have other experience. But that was within the skype group. The problem is, when you say: "I don't have a problem with refugees, but according to our german law, refugees are only refugees, when they don't head here from another safe state(like Austria), so according to our laws(which are stupid, but they still exist), alot of asylum seekers shouldn't have gotten asylum. I think we need to look at it more closely. Germany has alot of problems within itself already. ATM, we can't just take more potential problems onto ourselfs. Also I say that we should throw any criminal refugees out of the country, because, as a guest, you don't rape chilren, women, etc.. I have no problem with refugees like I said, but I have a problem with criminals." you are a straight nazi because you said something against refugees.
Also because I once said(at the very start of PEGIDA): "Not everything they say is bullshit. Lots of it is, but at some things they have a point."
Now all the time I get told "Give me a shout when you're back from your pegida walk"
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
A) This attack has very likely nothing to do with "problems in Syria".
B) Nobody will call you a nazi here. Or you have different experience?
A) With the problems in syria, I mean the war, which leads to many refugees, who cause alot of trouble in germany. Also, I think it's no coincedence, that all these terror problems have started since the end of last year, where the problems in syria became intense.
B) Yes, I have other experience. But that was within the skype group. The problem is, when you say: "I don't have a problem with refugees, but according to our german law, refugees are only refugees, when they don't head here from another safe state(like Austria), so according to our laws(which are stupid, but they still exist), alot of asylum seekers shouldn't have gotten asylum. I think we need to look at it more closely. Germany has alot of problems within itself already. ATM, we can't just take more potential problems onto ourselfs. Also I say that we should throw any criminal refugees out of the country, because, as a guest, you don't rape chilren, women, etc.. I have no problem with refugees like I said, but I have a problem with criminals." you are a straight nazi because you said something against refugees.
Also because I once said(at the very start of PEGIDA): "Not everything they say is bullshit. Lots of it is, but at some things they have a point."
Now all the time I get told "Give me a shout when you're back from your pegida walk"
I think lots of this is half truth only.
There was this kind of terror before the end of last year. A similar terror in Paris was about one year earlier. Hence before the big refugee traffic started.
Also I don't really see the problems in Germany being caused by the refugees. It's more the Germans themselves that now are even more afraid about their future, may it be financial or safety future. Often this fear though is ungrounded or at least in a far too extrem way. I will not say that the fear about financial future in Germans is uncaused. This is a different story and there definitely might be reasons to be afraid of. But it's not caused by refugee politics.
Yes. The rise of the AFD in Germany is linked to these fears as also about the problems many have with the actual politics. But it's not about refugees only. Problems with unhappiness with old parties were there before in recent years. Now it just happens in a more extreme way due to the combination.
Regarding B) don't get me wrong. I never have and also with this discussion above did not call you anything like Nazi. not my intention neither. Also I am not saying it's 100% ideal how it happens etc.
Then again I am also not a fan of phrases like refugees raping women or children. This would be quite new to me and often was claimed by right headed politics but also mainly showed the fear and no facts.
As a Belgian who has just lost several countrymen, most likely some friends of a friend, I can only say: don't blame the refugees, don't blame the muslims. These terrorists have been radicalised long before the war in Syria and the refugee crisis.
What happened in Brussels today has been happening in Syria every day for the last 5 years. So can we blame the people for trying to find a safer place to live?
When Abdeslam was arrested in Molenbeek last week, locals started throwing rocks and bottles at the police. That's where the problem is, not with the refugees.
I just heard the news here in Australia, I am so very sorry for my Belgian friends that they have to go through this.
Remember what makes you a free people and remember that your equally free friends around the world stand with you. Australia will stand with you now as we have before. Terrorists rely on fear to succeed and are put to shadow by resolve, courage and compassion. Belgium you are not alone...
Wise words Ollfardh, people sadly tend to mix things up these days and that leads them to arms of "white" extremists, who also mix everything up up in their propaganda.
TheManxMissile wrote:
@Paul - I assume by problems in Syria you mean Islamic State (In Syria), as opposed to the migrant crisis which is a lot wider than just Syria and is pretty un-related to terror attacks?
_________
Istanbul on Saturday, Brussels today. Ankara and Ivory Coast on the 13th. Sh*ts not going well is it... and that's just the last 2 weeks!
Let's not forget ever since Homo Sapiens came to existence this is by farrr the most peaceful time in our history. Such attacks are inevitable when certain ethnic groups are constantly persecuted by the government.
When Abdeslam was arrested in Molenbeek last week, locals started throwing rocks and bottles at the police. That's where the problem is, not with the refugees.
Refugees will become locals. And the divide will continue to increase.
Ollfardh wrote:
As a Belgian who has just lost several countrymen, most likely some friends of a friend, I can only say: don't blame the refugees, don't blame the muslims. These terrorists have been radicalised long before the war in Syria and the refugee crisis.
What happened in Brussels today has been happening in Syria every day for the last 5 years. So can we blame the people for trying to find a safer place to live?
When Abdeslam was arrested in Molenbeek last week, locals started throwing rocks and bottles at the police. That's where the problem is, not with the refugees.
Why did they throw rocks and bottles?
@roturn: I have some different experiences with some refugees. Keep in mind, that I know, that most of them are alright.
-4 12-year old kids who couldn't speak german attacked my grandma for food and other bought stuff. She still hasn't left her home since.(Happened around a month ago)
-refugees "attacked" us at athletics training twice. First time, they just entered our sports hall and shoved us and stuff. We were quite afraid, because they were like 30-40 and we were 9 people. Mostly women.
-the second time they attacked us in the same hall. After the first incident, our club decided to lock the doors. So the refugees busted them open. Same stuff happened. Also this time they were claiming that its their hall now.(at least thats what I understood from their gestures)
-in our asylum home, the medics keep refusing to go in there, because they were threatened with knifes.
-the gf of my dad worked in an asylum office. She was verbally attacked and quit her job there, because she was threatened to death by aslyum seekers, because she didn't wanted to give them 2000€/month, a house and a car.
results:
-the police couldn't help my grandma, because the refugees had no passports, so they couldn't identify the thiefs.
-my grandma still doesn't leave the house
-our club needs to pay around 2.500€ for a new door.
-the medics still refuse to step in there and get paid to not talk about this.(seems like I just did)
-the gf of my dad is now teacher
-we regret donating toys and clothes to the refugees.
Thats what my "personal" trouble with refugees was so far. This all happened in 2016.
The only bad trouble, I normally have with nazis is that I can't sleep, because they shout out their stupid paroles, walking through my city at 3 o'clock in the morning.
So from my personal experiences I could well live without any refugees.
Alakagom wrote:Such attacks are inevitable when certain ethnic groups are constantly persecuted by the government.
Care to elaborate on this part? Because as i see it, this is not about someone being persecuted, but about radical islam (like every other radical whatever) being movement of hate against anybody who is different. Nobody treats muslims in Europe badly, so this attacks cant be "justified" by that.
Paul, you blame dozens of thousands of people for actions of several individuals. What you listed is bad and it should have been investigated, but you cant easily say "refugees did that". Or should i call every german a racist fuck, because you have some there?
Alakagom wrote:Such attacks are inevitable when certain ethnic groups are constantly persecuted by the government.
Care to elaborate on this part? Because as i see it, this is not about someone being persecuted, but about radical islam (like every other radical whatever) being movement of hate against anybody who is different. Nobody treats muslims in Europe badly, so this attacks cant be "justified" by that.
Sorry could have made it clearer, that point was what is happening in Turkey right now and the oppression of the Kurd minitory by the government which leads up to such dreadful attacks.
Wow Paul that is some disgraceful things there, I can't understand how your country can't secure you from such animals. Truly shocking that. I would be upset too.
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Paul, you blame dozens of thousands of people for actions of several individuals. What you listed is bad and it should have been investigated, but you cant easily say "refugees did that". Or should i call every german a racist fuck, because you have some there?
I don't blame other refugees on the things that have happened. Thats why I said, that I would throw the criminal refugees out. Not every refugee. Al least 80% of the refugees in Germany are alright. I have no problem with taking them and letting them stay here. But I have a problem with our politicians lying at us and not doing anything against criminals.
First they said the refugees are very high educated, then they said they are educated well, then they said most are educated. Now we know most of them can't even read.
Also I would have no problem if it would be possible to simply throw out all criminals(germans included).
All I want is a life without having the fear of going out in the evening. Back in Ilmenau(where I studied first) I was rammed by a car on a street. The driver didn't care. Couldn't see what nationality he was. And it doesn't matter. Because it's not the nationality that matters for me, it's the behaviour.
Alakagom wrote:Such attacks are inevitable when certain ethnic groups are constantly persecuted by the government.
Care to elaborate on this part? Because as i see it, this is not about someone being persecuted, but about radical islam (like every other radical whatever) being movement of hate against anybody who is different. Nobody treats muslims in Europe badly, so this attacks cant be "justified" by that.
Sorry could have made it clearer, that point was what is happening in Turkey right now and the oppression of the Kurd minitory by the government which leads up to such dreadful attacks.
Ahh, now that makes sense and i agree with you on Kurdish matter.
Kirchen_75 wrote:
Wow Paul that is some disgraceful things there, I can't understand how your country can't secure you from such animals. Truly shocking that. I would be upset too.
I'm certain that no German has made an unprovoked attacked on an immigrant... oh no, i mean i am certain that a German has made an unprovoked attack on an immigrant. But i won't tar the entire German population as a result. In the same way i won't call every Muslim a terrorist because a minority are. Or ever white person a Christian, or every American a school shooter. etc etc.
____
In the UK the refugee crisis has become somewhat of the main focus for our EU Referendum. A lot of people don't want the EU to dictate to us how many refugees we take in, which i understand. The shame is the minority of UK residents who don't want to take them in on prejudice/racist opinions rather than on any factual basis (also known as UKIP voters, hehe).
We've taken in a number of refugees and i'm yet to hear any horror stories, and i even go on the Daily Mail website! (not cause i read it but because it's funny)
Alakagom wrote:Such attacks are inevitable when certain ethnic groups are constantly persecuted by the government.
Care to elaborate on this part? Because as i see it, this is not about someone being persecuted, but about radical islam (like every other radical whatever) being movement of hate against anybody who is different. Nobody treats muslims in Europe badly, so this attacks cant be "justified" by that.
Well basically it's a very reactionary thing. Muslims feel threatened by the likes of pegida or FN or whatever racist far-right group you can think of, so they become more radicalized. Same for Christians, they feel threatened by islamic fundamentalists, so they get radicalized.
Paul, I'm sorry for what happened to your grandma, but you're only seeing one side of the problem. Those kids have seen war attrocities throughout their youth, they learned you need to take stuff to survive, because no one is going to offer it to you.
Now, we can either take them in, help them and try to change their view of the world, or we can leave them to rot in Syria. The second solution would be the easiest of course, but I still want to give the first one a try. Even if their will be minor and major problems on the way.
Ollfardh wrote:
Paul, I'm sorry for what happened to your grandma, but you're only seeing one side of the problem. Those kids have seen war attrocities throughout their youth, they learned you need to take stuff to survive, because no one is going to offer it to you.
Now, we can either take them in, help them and try to change their view of the world, or we can leave them to rot in Syria. The second solution would be the easiest of course, but I still want to give the first one a try. Even if their will be minor and major problems on the way.
I'm completely with you, but what our country currently does is simply taking them, and making us germans adopt to them. We have german parents who want to "eliminate" christmas from school, because they feel, that refugees COULD have a problem with that. I have no problem in being cautious, f.e. offering a 2nd meal in school, when 1 meal is pig. I'm fine with that. But some people are just try-hards when it comes to help people. I also know that those refugees, probably had the worst time of their life and that they are really happy to be in a safe country...but still there are refugees who are not. For example the ones who would rather go back to syria instead of staying in "boring" finland.
If we take them(imo, the better solution), then we have to make it well organized and we need to have rules. F.e. every refugee needs a passport. That's a must. We need to get everyone one. Germany needs to hire more people for the asylum offices. We need to go "full gas" in either one or the other direction. The current: "it's all working fine." attitude doesn't bring us far.
This isn't just a one dimensional problem with a few trouble makers.
Lets me list the problems with the islamic culture,
Terror - (Not a lot of people contribute to this) Sharia law above the countries law - (You would be suprissed by the numbers in favor of Sharia) Crime
Rape
Threats Discrimination against jews, gays and other minorities No respect for women rights No go zones for medics, because the areas are controlled by gangs (there are 55 of those in sweden) Too many people on social benefits, causing great trouble for countries money whise
Now does this mean I have a problem with muslims? No not at all, the difference is, that i can see the problems that their culture brings to Europe, and i accept the facts that are being put on the table(Statistics and such).
Only when you accept a problem can you begin solving it. Too many of our european politicians have not accepted these issues and dealt with them accordingly, but instead closed their eyes and hoped it would go away on. Clearly it hasn't, problems don't usually vanish on their own.
Sweden is a classic example of a country that under no circumstances would address the subjects, both the media and the politicians cracked down hard on any questioning of the culture of Islam. And what it the results? The country is now more divided than ever before, you have the many refugee homes being burned down by right wings who is frustrated by their politicians.
I've linked a video from the australian new crew from 60 minutes who visited sweden not to many days ago.
I've been around a few subjects now in a language that i wasn't raised with, so my point may not have gotten across as i've liked, so i'll sum it up.
I believe that there needs to be a general acceptance by the politicians around Europe, that Islam has a side, that is incredible hard to incorporate into european society, and i believe we need to stop talking about "it's only few people" because in my opinion, it's way more than just a few. No they are not all terrorist ,murderers or rapist, but the second they applaud Sharia law above our laws, they are a problem, and there is a big chance that they support more extrem muslims in their venture
We need an honest debate around Europe, regarding the challenge Islam posses to our free societies, in a sober and honest way. We should have done that many years ago, instead of ignoring it, but i hope we can still turn it around.
Dusen wrote: Terror Germany has a bigger problem with right wing terrorism than with islamic terrorism. Goes to show what happens to you when you don't behave like dicks... Sharia law above the countries law No muslim I have ever spoken to supports that, but could you link your statistics anyway? Crime Totally a muslim problem Rape See above Threats What? Discrimination against jews, gays and other minorities Again this isn't a muslim problem, look at the racist parties that are doing well all over europe... No respect for women rights Rape in marriage was legal in Germany up until 1997, and the likes of Horst Seehofer (First minister of Bavaria and part of the government coalition of Germany) voted to keep it that way. This certainly isn't a muslim problem. No go zones for medics, because the areas are controlled by gangs Again, links? Too many people on social benefits, causing great trouble for countries money whise Tax the rich properly, then that won't be much of a problem anyway. More money went lost through tax evasion (ca. 100.000.000.000€) in Germany in 2015 than on the refugee crisis (ca. 10.000.000.000€).
not my intention neither. Also I am not saying it's 100% ideal how it happens etc. 
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
