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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 07-08-2015 19:15
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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Fighter is length of red bar or flashing moments (one of them) for humans, and frequency of attacks for AI
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| lakebeach |
Posted on 07-08-2015 20:35
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1172
Joined: 15-11-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Cav is far, far from who he once was, and only one sprint point lower than Kittel and the same acceleration is too high. He has been beaten by riders like Wouter Wippert, Elia Viviani, Fabian Cancellara and Fernando Gaviria  in sprint this year, not to mention Peter Sagan. Furthermore, Cavendish has never won a sprint stage that Kittel has contested. Cavendish's stats are too high compared Kittel imo.
"It's very hard to work with other guys because nobody wants to work with me so it's better to drop everybody." - Peter Sagan |
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| Bikex |
Posted on 07-08-2015 20:55
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Team Leader
Posts: 7257
Joined: 25-08-2012
PCM$: 600.00
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I also don't understand why Greipel doesn't get rewarded after his Tour. Imo he should at least be as strong as Cavendish, after beating him 4vs1 times at the Tour. Also the last years he was at least equally strong compared to him. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 07-08-2015 23:51
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Just a few of my observations:
Aru/Landa- It's better to give Aru 81 MTN like Landa because if not the game AI will select Landa as GC leader which is not realistic for the Giro. Also I think Aru is 81 anyway.
Greipel- Needs a far better REC than 74 as his recovery is good and there's no way he should be 74 when Cavendish is 80 REC.
Gerrans- Finally gets a really low fighter stat and hopefully this will make him wheel suck all the way to the finish.
Pinot- He's an 80 mtn, he just had terrible luck in the Tour.
Rodriguez- Good to see him get a slight downgrade in MTN.
Degenkolb- I'd also put him to 81 cobbles as well, as I know somebody mentioned this and also his REC is by far the lowest of the sprinters at just 73.
Modolo- Not sure why he gets an inferior ACC stat compared to the other Italian sprinters as he was the best of the bunch at the Giro.'
Nibali- Should be 79 hill as he's one of the best hill riders of the big GT guys.
G.Caruso- Should have 79 hill as he's always there at the death in LBL.
Kreuziger- Strange to see him get 79 hill, he always looks like a typical 78 guy on hills.
Dennis- he's worth at least 79 TT (possibly more)
Porte- Does he really deserve 68 REC this is really low?
Thomas- Is looking more and more like Merckx everyday |
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 08-08-2015 00:13
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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@Tafiolmo : Firstly your Landa/Aru thoughts are wrong actually, cause so far in my game Aru has been the leader, when Landa was with him in the Giro. Also Landa support stats doesn't make him much better and haven't made a real result in my careers yet.
Pinot : Before the tour we said he was a 79,5 and he just barely made the 80 cut, now the Tour might have been unlucky for him, but 79 is what he deserves for now and he will do pretty good in careers either way.
Porte : REC only really has a big difference, if two riders have a difference around the 10. The stat to look for is Resistance and it's really got everything to say for the GC guys. He would max get 70 and that wouldn't make any difference either really.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 08-08-2015 09:12
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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sgdanny wrote:
@Tafiolmo : Firstly your Landa/Aru thoughts are wrong actually, cause so far in my game Aru has been the leader, when Landa was with him in the Giro. Also Landa support stats doesn't make him much better and haven't made a real result in my careers yet.
Pinot : Before the tour we said he was a 79,5 and he just barely made the 80 cut, now the Tour might have been unlucky for him, but 79 is what he deserves for now and he will do pretty good in careers either way.
Porte : REC only really has a big difference, if two riders have a difference around the 10. The stat to look for is Resistance and it's really got everything to say for the GC guys. He would max get 70 and that wouldn't make any difference either really.
About Landa/Aru, so if Aru with the current stats ends up being the leader, is this because of his slightly superior TT skills and the nationality bonus?
I agree Pinot should be 79.5 but as we can't have .5 I guess he has to up or down and it's just personal taste.
I understand that with Porte you really need a big difference to make his poor REC stat make a difference. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 19:39
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 08-08-2015 09:44
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
sgdanny wrote:
@Tafiolmo : Firstly your Landa/Aru thoughts are wrong actually, cause so far in my game Aru has been the leader, when Landa was with him in the Giro. Also Landa support stats doesn't make him much better and haven't made a real result in my careers yet.
Pinot : Before the tour we said he was a 79,5 and he just barely made the 80 cut, now the Tour might have been unlucky for him, but 79 is what he deserves for now and he will do pretty good in careers either way.
Porte : REC only really has a big difference, if two riders have a difference around the 10. The stat to look for is Resistance and it's really got everything to say for the GC guys. He would max get 70 and that wouldn't make any difference either really.
About Landa/Aru, so if Aru with the current stats ends up being the leader, is this because of his slightly superior TT skills and the nationality bonus?
I really dunno, but with current stats the captain order on Astana in mountains are still Nibali > Aru > Landa > Fuglsang.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 15:20
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Best Danish TT:
75: Christopher Juul-Jensen and Rasmus Quaade
74: Mads Würtz Schmidt
73: Jakob Fuglsang and Lars Bak
72: Lasse Norman Hansen
Best Danish PL:
74: Mads Würtz Schmidt and Christopher Juul-Jensen
73: Lars Bak and Jakob Fuglsang
72: Rasmus Quaade and Lasse Norman Hansen
Edited by Arberg27 on 08-08-2015 15:51
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 08-08-2015 15:44
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Nah, waay too high.
Würtz and Juul-Jensen are definitely not going to end up on that, Würtz not even close. Sure, good Denmark ITT but definitely not impressive enough to make him the best TTist(by a margin) on his level.
If you disagree, please point me to another good Würtz result since his step from juniors 
Wouldn't count NC ITTs here because those are basically the same opposition he faced here(so impossible to compare to non-Danish and a race where form and motivation is leading )
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 16:02
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
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https://feltet.dk/nyheder/wrtz_tog_flo...ark_rundt/
https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/christop...keltstart/
Mads Würtz Schmidt in the top 3 of Danish time trial rider and Christopher Juul- Jensen is the best. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 08-08-2015 16:06
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Did you read my post?
What I was suggesting is that the Denmark Rundt result(which is obviously your cause of posting here) is Würtz only very notable result. Ridiculous to gave him 74TT(by far the best TT stat on his level) for mainly that when he has been crappy in international fields.
NC ITTs are not a primary source of stats anyway, again, like I explained in my post above.
They only race against themselves(and you need some other non-Denmark ITT to put it in perspective, and f.e Wurtz best result was 18th in a crappy TT in 2013 before this) and form and motivation is important there.
Or would you say Kelderman should be 81TT and Flens 80TT because they beat Dumoulin in the NC ITT of NL?
So Würtz is Denmark's 3rd best ITT ist because of his Denmark NC result a while back, where he beat Fugl by 1 sec?
So that makes Würtz a better ITT guy than Fuglsang by default?
Edited by Jesleyh on 08-08-2015 16:09
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 16:06
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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lakebeach wrote:
Cav is far, far from who he once was, and only one sprint point lower than Kittel and the same acceleration is too high. He has been beaten by riders like Wouter Wippert, Elia Viviani, Fabian Cancellara and Fernando Gaviria in sprint this year, not to mention Peter Sagan. Furthermore, Cavendish has never won a sprint stage that Kittel has contested. Cavendish's stats are too high compared Kittel imo.
Viviani: Also Greipel lost to Viviani this year, so thats not a big deal.
Cancellara: Cav has gone far to early.
Gaviria: Cav clearly not on form at that race.
Kittel: Cav won sprints, when Kittel has contested. Also at the TdF.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 16:47
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
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So like Fulgsang for many years gradually.
Jesleyh wrote:
NC ITTs are not a primary source of stats anyway, again, like I explained in my post above.
They only race against themselves(and you need some other non-Denmark ITT to put it in perspective, and f.e Wurtz best result was 18th in a crappy TT in 2013 before this) and form and motivation is important there.
Or would you say Kelderman should be 81TT and Flens 80TT because they beat Dumoulin in the NC ITT of NL? NC is a good place to look like the riders for the same country. People who are good time trial , but can not win a time trial in
UCI World Tour example Critérium du Dauphiné and does not run the standings, have nothing to run for there.
Time trial at the UCI World Tour mean much, but it makes time trial on the NC so too.
Jesleyh wrote:
So Würtz is Denmark's 3rd best ITT ist because of his Denmark NC result a while back, where he beat Fugl by 1 sec?
So that makes Würtz a better ITT guy than Fuglsang by default? Yes Fuglsang is overrated and has not run a good time trial outside NC recent years.
But okay you give Cavendish 82spr and 83acc and Boonen 80 cobbles although they have been miserable in 3 years and Cancellara 79 TT although the last time he ran a so good + 20km time trial was 5 years ago.
Edited by Arberg27 on 08-08-2015 16:55
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 08-08-2015 17:00
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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@Arberg
Well, that was only a half answer on what I told you, but ok...
Fuglsang getting 14th in a great field in Romandië ITT says enough to me. Also 14th in Col d'Eze ITT(Paris Nice) and 17th Romandie '14 too.
Yet to see Würtz do stuff like that. That said I don't rate Fuglsang as top TTist or something, just mentioning that results like this are much more important than gaining a second in Denmark NC ITT(like Würtz did on Fugl).
Würtz is yet to consistently get results on CT level. If you can only prove it in your own country and not in international fields(Sure, Post Denmark can be called an international field but as you can see in the results, the only riders in good form are Danish) you are definitely not worth 74TT.
After all that is still what this discussion is about. Würtz will most likely be 71TT max (haven't made a decision yet) because he simply lacks ITT results even on his level.
What didn't help him is that he barely races ITTs out of his own country so we wouldn't know for sure what ''2015 Würtz'' would've done in f.e a good U23 race, but stats aren't about ''what if''.
Comparing this to Cavendish and Boonen is low though, those are whole different situations.
Cavenidish miserable is bullshit. Stage 7 isn't miserable. No longer world's best sprinter possibly.
Boonen has never been shit, he was injured. Whole different situation.
The rare moments(in cobbled season) he was not injured, he showed he was class anyway. 80 minimum is only fair in that case.
See you also added Cancellara.
Did you not notice we're slowly downgrading him from his earlier stats? Stats aren't only about ''the last race he raced'' you know. Also about previous results, where he showed what he's worth. That is not about 10 years ago but could be 1 year ago.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 17:20
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
@Arberg
Well, that was only a half answer on what I told you, but ok...
Fuglsang getting 14th in a great field in Romandië ITT says enough to me. Also 14th in Col d'Eze ITT(Paris Nice) and 17th Romandie '14 too.
Yet to see Würtz do stuff like that. That said I don't rate Fuglsang as top TTist or something, just mentioning that results like this are much more important than gaining a second in Denmark NC ITT(like Würtz did on Fugl).
Würtz is yet to consistently get results on CT level. If you can only prove it in your own country and not in international fields(Sure, Post Denmark can be called an international field but as you can see in the results, the only riders in good form are Danish) you are definitely not worth 74TT.
After all that is still what this discussion is about. Würtz will most likely be 71TT max (haven't made a decision yet) because he simply lacks ITT results even on his level.
What didn't help him is that he barely races ITTs out of his own country so we wouldn't know for sure what ''2015 Würtz'' would've done in f.e a good U23 race, but stats aren't about ''what if''.
Yes ok you're right! 
Edited by Arberg27 on 08-08-2015 17:28
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 17:33
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
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Paul23 wrote:
lakebeach wrote:
Cav is far, far from who he once was, and only one sprint point lower than Kittel and the same acceleration is too high. He has been beaten by riders like Wouter Wippert, Elia Viviani, Fabian Cancellara and Fernando Gaviria in sprint this year, not to mention Peter Sagan. Furthermore, Cavendish has never won a sprint stage that Kittel has contested. Cavendish's stats are too high compared Kittel imo.
Viviani: Also Greipel lost to Viviani this year, so thats not a big deal.
Cancellara: Cav has gone far to early.
Gaviria: Cav clearly not on form at that race.
Kittel: Cav won sprints, when Kittel has contested. Also at the TdF. Yes Cavendish clearly not on form in 3 years |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 17:59
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
lakebeach wrote:
Cav is far, far from who he once was, and only one sprint point lower than Kittel and the same acceleration is too high. He has been beaten by riders like Wouter Wippert, Elia Viviani, Fabian Cancellara and Fernando Gaviria in sprint this year, not to mention Peter Sagan. Furthermore, Cavendish has never won a sprint stage that Kittel has contested. Cavendish's stats are too high compared Kittel imo.
Viviani: Also Greipel lost to Viviani this year, so thats not a big deal.
Cancellara: Cav has gone far to early.
Gaviria: Cav clearly not on form at that race.
Kittel: Cav won sprints, when Kittel has contested. Also at the TdF. Yes Cavendish clearly not on form in 3 years
Cav won alot in the last 3 years. TdF isn't everything. Kittel is a better sprinter, the thing with Gaviria is like the thing with Diaz/Quintana. Its at a part of a season where Cav is not on form, but Gaviria is. Cav still deserves 82 SP.
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| lakebeach |
Posted on 08-08-2015 18:10
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1172
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Paul23 wrote:
Kittel: Cav won sprints, when Kittel has contested. Also at the TdF.
As far as I know, Cavendish has only won three stages in the Tour when Kittel has been present. In those three stages Kittel finished 196th, 124th and 187th. I don't know what your definition of 'contested' is, but I'm pretty sure Kittel didn't play a huge role in those sprints.
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/T..._2_Tournai
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/T...nd_Monrond
https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/T..._Marseille
Please tell me when Cav won a sprint when Kittel has contested. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just curios. 
"It's very hard to work with other guys because nobody wants to work with me so it's better to drop everybody." - Peter Sagan |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 08-08-2015 18:12
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Cavs still clearly an 82 sprinter, so I don't see the reason for debating him. I don't think his REC is what it was and deserves a downgrade but that's about it. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 08-08-2015 18:18
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Yes, I mean those wins. Kittel was there, Cav was there. Both took part in the race.
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