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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 12:38
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Yes but don't forget that contador even with peter sagan protecting him he was still getting dropped and Quintana too was dropped too but they came back while froome with a teammate didn't loss any time and didn't got dropped same for nibali so it shows that Quintana and contador are clearly lower in cobble stats even with someone protecting them
But Contador and Quintana still finished in the main group and just finished further down than Froome who had been riding near the front, so they didn't lose time.
Well in regards to your other point about strong riders protecting weak team leaders on cobbles getting dropped. I think there's a possibility of this if the GT man has a really crap cobble stat like in the 50's but in the 60's they should be able to hang in there, as long as they aren't trying to react to attacks or racing for stage victory.
The fact is that any GT guy with aspirations to do well in the Tour makes sure that he can survive reasonably well on a cobble stage by using his team and in-game the AI seems to manage this based on the one cobbled stage I've played in the Tour.
The biggest threat to a GC guy are accidents and mechanicals rather than the actual terrain |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 15:01
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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tobgunn123 wrote:
dark_x2012 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
The thing is people read too much into these cobbled stages in the Tour. They're weird stages because riders like Thomas, Stannard and Boom (even though he won last year) have their main duty to protect their team leaders like Froome and Nibali on stages like this, so basically in game somebody like Stannard should be protecting Froome over the cobbles and when I played last years tour de France on PCM 14 I noticed that the computer AI had Stannard protecting Froome which was great AI in action, so even Froome with a poor cobble stat hardly lost any time. So if this is common place then the cobbled stat is not hugely important for the top GC guys anyway unless of course its really bad, because in real life a huge amount of riders with poor cobble stat in the game, don't really lose that much time.
For example a rider like Frank if he's the leader of the team should be protected by somebody like Chavanel, so he won't lose too much time, Rodriguez should be protected by somebody like Kristoff etc, It's only really Nibali of the big GT guys that is quite a bit better than the rest on cobbles.
Yes but don't forget that contador even with peter sagan protecting him he was still getting dropped and Quintana too was dropped too but they came back while froome with a teammate didn't loss any time and didn't got dropped same for nibali so it shows that Quintana and contador are clearly lower in cobble stats even with someone protecting them
Yeah but also don't forget Conta had Giro in his legs and he wasn't too fresh, which caused bad positioning=almost being dropped. No matter how much you dislike Alberto and think the Giro is only an excuse, I can guarantee you it certainly isn't. Spoken in stat language the fatigue after the Giro is like dropping all your stats with 2/3 or even 4 points
 . That's true
If Contador knew he was that much tired to the point where he wouldn't be the true pistolero he wouldn't have ridden the Tour de France in the first place. The only reason why Contador was so tired is because in the giro his team should of been more intelligent in bringing good climbers to help him. He couldn't even trust his teammates so he had to follow attacks of aru and landa which I think was the best tactic ever for Astana to put constant pressure on Alberto's shoulders |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 16:25
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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If Contador knew he was that much tired to the point where he wouldn't be the true pistolero he wouldn't have ridden the Tour de France in the first place. The only reason why Contador was so tired is because in the giro his team should of been more intelligent in bringing good climbers to help him. He couldn't even trust his teammates so he had to follow attacks of aru and landa which I think was the best tactic ever for Astana to put constant pressure on Alberto's shoulders
Contador is like a lot of world class athletes, in that they believe that they're invincible and can achieve the impossible. No rider since these days does a Giro and Tour double as it's just so draining, so even if Contador had a better team with him I doubt he would've performed any better.
Riders need to choose either the Giro or the Tour but not both. |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 16:44
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is like a lot of world class athletes, in that they believe that they're invincible and can achieve the impossible. No rider since these days does a Giro and Tour double as it's just so draining, so even if Contador had a better team with him I doubt he would've performed any better.
Riders need to choose either the Giro or the Tour but not both.
But this way everyone would go for the Tour and the Giro would be boring. It'd be great if all the big guns went for all the GTs like Adam Hansen. This way we would know, who was the best, not to mention we would see a really great Tour as the top riders would all be exhausted. However that's impossible, because every rider has different plan of his season. That's why tere isn't an answer to the question "Who's the best?" in cycling. that's why it's great seeing someone trying despite the odds.  Froome for example will never do that. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 17:55
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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But this way everyone would go for the Tour and the Giro would be boring. It'd be great if all the big guns went for all the GTs like Adam Hansen. This way we would know, who was the best, not to mention we would see a really great Tour as the top riders would all be exhausted. However that's impossible, because every rider has different plan of his season. That's why tere isn't an answer to the question "Who's the best?" in cycling. that's why it's great seeing someone trying despite the odds. Froome for example will never do that.
Well Oleg Tinkov has tried to get the best GC riders to race in all the tours, but due to the vigors of it it's not going to happen. Adam Hansen is an exception and he's just going there to ride as a domestique anyway and try an win stages when the chance arises, this is different than trying to win overall.
Also for English speaking riders the Tour is everything which is why Froome is only deemed successful if he wins it. Lance Armstrong only concentrated on the Tour and Greg Lemond befoe him, used to ride he first couple of weeks of the Giro for the Tour as he said it was the perfect preparation. It was only Bradley Wiggins that described the Giro 'as a beautiful race' and showed appreciation that not only the Tour is important.
Nearly all the riders that rode the Giro/Tour double this year were clearly weaker in the Tour based on their own individual performances, which really shows it's one or the other but not both. |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 18:10
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Well Oleg Tinkov has tried to get the best GC riders to race in all the tours, but due to the vigors of it it's not going to happen. Adam Hansen is an exception and he's just going there to ride as a domestique anyway and try an win stages when the chance arises, this is different than trying to win overall.
Also for English speaking riders the Tour is everything which is why Froome is only deemed successful if he wins it. Lance Armstrong only concentrated on the Tour and Greg Lemond befoe him, used to ride he first couple of weeks of the Giro for the Tour as he said it was the perfect preparation. It was only Bradley Wiggins that described the Giro 'as a beautiful race' and showed appreciation that not only the Tour is important.
Nearly all the riders that rode the Giro/Tour double this year were clearly weaker in the Tour based on their own individual performances, which really shows it's one or the other but not both.
I know that. That's the problem of the vast majority of cycling-followers. That they're dumb and only watch the Tour and don't even know about most of the other races. Just look at the amount of people watching the Tour and the Giro. The truth is however that over the last couple of years the Vuelta has been by far the best GT, not because of its route, but because of the race itself. It can't be that hard to reform the cycling so that it is better. But if it is up to the UCI to make that change.... well, we'll have to hope for a miracle to have more than just 1 interesting out of 3 GTs. People like Contador are trying but he's just one and can't change everything alone. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 19:08
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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I know that. That's the problem of the vast majority of cycling-followers. That they're dumb and only watch the Tour and don't even know about most of the other races. Just look at the amount of people watching the Tour and the Giro. The truth is however that over the last couple of years the Vuelta has been by far the best GT, not because of its route, but because of the race itself. It can't be that hard to reform the cycling so that it is better. But if it is up to the UCI to make that change.... well, we'll have to hope for a miracle to have more than just 1 interesting out of 3 GTs. People like Contador are trying but he's just one and can't change everything alone.
Without a doubt the Vuelta has been the most exciting GT of recent years, as the competing riders at least have good recuperation time before they start it. I'm already looking forward to the Froome v Nibali v Valverde showdown in the race as well, especially since Froome doesn't ride the Vuelta as good as the Tour.
I'm also hoping that TVG might ride it since he dropped out of the Tour with sickness and then we'd have another really strong GC contender. |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 19:44
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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when does this DB come out? |
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| R_U_MINE |
Posted on 28-07-2015 21:47
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Amateur
Posts: 17
Joined: 15-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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63 cobblestones for Frank is realistic i think |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 22:34
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Since you've asked so many times, your wish should be granted |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 13:12
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 28-07-2015 22:39
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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When it's done Stats wise we're done and just graphics left
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 22:53
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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sgdanny wrote:
When it's done Stats wise we're done and just graphics left
Are you still having Cavendish with a really high REC still? |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 22:56
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
sgdanny wrote:
When it's done Stats wise we're done and just graphics left
Are you still having Cavendish with a really high REC still?
Look at his record on the Champ-Elysees, which is after all the mountains and other trials and tribulations of Le Tour, and tell me he doesn't deserve an at least half-decent REC stat
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 22:58
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5075
Joined: 07-08-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
I know that. That's the problem of the vast majority of cycling-followers. That they're dumb and only watch the Tour and don't even know about most of the other races. Just look at the amount of people watching the Tour and the Giro. The truth is however that over the last couple of years the Vuelta has been by far the best GT, not because of its route, but because of the race itself. It can't be that hard to reform the cycling so that it is better. But if it is up to the UCI to make that change.... well, we'll have to hope for a miracle to have more than just 1 interesting out of 3 GTs. People like Contador are trying but he's just one and can't change everything alone.
Without a doubt the Vuelta has been the most exciting GT of recent years, as the competing riders at least have good recuperation time before they start it. I'm already looking forward to the Froome v Nibali v Valverde showdown in the race as well, especially since Froome doesn't ride the Vuelta as good as the Tour.
I'm also hoping that TVG might ride it since he dropped out of the Tour with sickness and then we'd have another really strong GC contender.
Agreed, allthough its not 100% for Froome and Nibali. And you can also add Quintana to that list. And Rodri who seems to do a lot better in that race, although probably not a thread for the win.
The only rider in the peloton as it stands now with a chance of the Giro-Tour is Quintana due to his recuperation. I cant see Froome do it, Contador tried, Nibali? Nah. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 28-07-2015 23:19
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@ Jandal
Well in the last year or so Cave has looked a bit jaded at times in hard races compared to old, I just think 80 seems really high in comparison to the other sprinters.
@ Rijs
So is Quintana riding the Vuelta this year, as I didn't think he was? |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 28-07-2015 23:23
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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Didn't know it was 80  But still needs a high stat, class is permanent and this year he was a tad unlucky with his train being way outstripped by Greipel's due to abandons, especially by Paris. Maybe 77-79
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2 |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 29-07-2015 00:26
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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jandal7 wrote:
Didn't know it was 80 But still needs a high stat, class is permanent and this year he was a tad unlucky with his train being way outstripped by Greipel's due to abandons, especially by Paris. Maybe 77-79
The loss of tony martin and the abandon of Kwiatkowski didn't help him either during sprints |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 29-07-2015 00:30
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
If Contador knew he was that much tired to the point where he wouldn't be the true pistolero he wouldn't have ridden the Tour de France in the first place. The only reason why Contador was so tired is because in the giro his team should of been more intelligent in bringing good climbers to help him. He couldn't even trust his teammates so he had to follow attacks of aru and landa which I think was the best tactic ever for Astana to put constant pressure on Alberto's shoulders
Contador is like a lot of world class athletes, in that they believe that they're invincible and can achieve the impossible. No rider since these days does a Giro and Tour double as it's just so draining, so even if Contador had a better team with him I doubt he would've performed any better.
Riders need to choose either the Giro or the Tour but not both.
Riders can choose both but it depends of their goals |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 29-07-2015 00:34
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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dark_x2012 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is like a lot of world class athletes, in that they believe that they're invincible and can achieve the impossible. No rider since these days does a Giro and Tour double as it's just so draining, so even if Contador had a better team with him I doubt he would've performed any better.
Riders need to choose either the Giro or the Tour but not both.
But this way everyone would go for the Tour and the Giro would be boring. It'd be great if all the big guns went for all the GTs like Adam Hansen. This way we would know, who was the best, not to mention we would see a really great Tour as the top riders would all be exhausted. However that's impossible, because every rider has different plan of his season. That's why tere isn't an answer to the question "Who's the best?" in cycling. that's why it's great seeing someone trying despite the odds. Froome for example will never do that.
What makes you think froome will never do that ? You don't eve know, you gotta wait, he could prove you wrong someday. He's not going to sacrifice the tour for the giro that's it. You got to be real there, winning the tour adds more meaning than winning the giro since pretty much all top riders are there. |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 29-07-2015 00:51
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
jandal7 wrote:
Didn't know it was 80 But still needs a high stat, class is permanent and this year he was a tad unlucky with his train being way outstripped by Greipel's due to abandons, especially by Paris. Maybe 77-79
The loss of tony martin and the abandon of Kwiatkowski didn't help him either during sprints
That's exactly what I said, should have made it clearer
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2 |
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