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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:22
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Classics Specialist
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silent_control wrote:
Rammus wrote:
Regarding Froome's TT stat it's true he hasn't had many strong results recently but I will say he almost won the TDF Team TT by himself. Looked like he was on the front 90% of the time.
This is a good point. I'd say that he deserves 79 and if he doesn't perform well at the Vuelta TT, then he should get downgraded to 78. Is he going to La Vuelta? |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 09:23
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| bob7 |
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:27
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
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fidjim2013 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
Guys like froome, Quintana or nibali could have done the giro too but they didn't do it because they are realistic they know how it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour the same year it has nothing to do with ambition and contador knows exactly that he was too old to try it, that was kind of a gamble and unfortunately for him he finish 5th in this tour.
What ? In your opinion Contador's ambition is just stupid ? So, why Quintana will race Vuelta, if it is impossible to win 2 GTs in a row in the same year ? Is he also stupid ? Or gambling ? No. This is aspiration. I don't like Quintana, but I respect him for trying to achieve something extremely hard.
Did you read my comment carefully ? it seems not because I said it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour, I never said it was more difficult to win tour-vuelta. Btw people might think contador was stupid to try at 32 years of age. Even if Qintana decide to go for vuelta it wouldn't mean anything cuz he finished 2nd in le tour so it wouldn't be winning 2 GT in a row same year.
Cycling it's not about winning Tour de France. Cycling is passion,
persistence, taking new targets and much more. Even if it's impossible to win Giro-Tour or Tour-Vuelta it's worth to try. All the time. It's something big, riders who trying this are awesome, they doesn't calculate, just ride and this is real cycling. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:42
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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bob7 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
Guys like froome, Quintana or nibali could have done the giro too but they didn't do it because they are realistic they know how it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour the same year it has nothing to do with ambition and contador knows exactly that he was too old to try it, that was kind of a gamble and unfortunately for him he finish 5th in this tour.
What ? In your opinion Contador's ambition is just stupid ? So, why Quintana will race Vuelta, if it is impossible to win 2 GTs in a row in the same year ? Is he also stupid ? Or gambling ? No. This is aspiration. I don't like Quintana, but I respect him for trying to achieve something extremely hard.
Did you read my comment carefully ? it seems not because I said it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour, I never said it was more difficult to win tour-vuelta. Btw people might think contador was stupid to try at 32 years of age. Even if Qintana decide to go for vuelta it wouldn't mean anything cuz he finished 2nd in le tour so it wouldn't be winning 2 GT in a row same year.
Cycling it's not about winning Tour de France. Cycling is passion,
persistence, taking new targets and much more. Even if it's impossible to win Giro-Tour or Tour-Vuelta it's worth to try. All the time. It's something big, riders who trying this are awesome, they doesn't calculate, just ride and this is real cycling.
I agree with your comment this time because you took the time to answer me intelligently |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 26-07-2015 21:47
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
Guys like froome, Quintana or nibali could have done the giro too but they didn't do it because they are realistic they know how it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour the same year it has nothing to do with ambition and contador knows exactly that he was too old to try it, that was kind of a gamble and unfortunately for him he finish 5th in this tour.
What ? In your opinion Contador's ambition is just stupid ? So, why Quintana will race Vuelta, if it is impossible to win 2 GTs in a row in the same year ? Is he also stupid ? Or gambling ? No. This is aspiration. I don't like Quintana, but I respect him for trying to achieve something extremely hard.
Did you read my comment carefully ? it seems not because I said it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour, I never said it was more difficult to win tour-vuelta. Btw people might think contador was stupid to try at 32 years of age. Even if Qintana decide to go for vuelta it wouldn't mean anything cuz he finished 2nd in le tour so it wouldn't be winning 2 GT in a row same year.
Cycling it's not about winning Tour de France. Cycling is passion,
persistence, taking new targets and much more. Even if it's impossible to win Giro-Tour or Tour-Vuelta it's worth to try. All the time. It's something big, riders who trying this are awesome, they doesn't calculate, just ride and this is real cycling.
I agree with your comment this time because you took the time to answer me intelligently
Thanks !
Returning to the stats, to make gameplay as much as real, Quintana and Froome may be 1 MO better than Contador, when Quintana is really weaker in TT, Froome isn't 80 TT (78 imo) and Quintana has a best REC, Conta 2nd and Froome has the lowest. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:04
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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bob7 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
Guys like froome, Quintana or nibali could have done the giro too but they didn't do it because they are realistic they know how it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour the same year it has nothing to do with ambition and contador knows exactly that he was too old to try it, that was kind of a gamble and unfortunately for him he finish 5th in this tour.
What ? In your opinion Contador's ambition is just stupid ? So, why Quintana will race Vuelta, if it is impossible to win 2 GTs in a row in the same year ? Is he also stupid ? Or gambling ? No. This is aspiration. I don't like Quintana, but I respect him for trying to achieve something extremely hard.
Did you read my comment carefully ? it seems not because I said it's practically impossible to win both giro-tour, I never said it was more difficult to win tour-vuelta. Btw people might think contador was stupid to try at 32 years of age. Even if Qintana decide to go for vuelta it wouldn't mean anything cuz he finished 2nd in le tour so it wouldn't be winning 2 GT in a row same year.
Cycling it's not about winning Tour de France. Cycling is passion,
persistence, taking new targets and much more. Even if it's impossible to win Giro-Tour or Tour-Vuelta it's worth to try. All the time. It's something big, riders who trying this are awesome, they doesn't calculate, just ride and this is real cycling.
I agree with your comment this time because you took the time to answer me intelligently
Thanks !
Returning to the stats, to make gameplay as much as real, Quintana and Froome may be 1 MO better than Contador, when Quintana is really weaker in TT, Froome isn't 80 TT (78 imo) and Quintana has a best REC, Conta 2nd and Froome has the lowest.
Yes you are right but I think imo that Quintana should be 82 rec and froome 78rec and contador 79rec. For the TT froome 78, contador 76 and Quintana 73 |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:12
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Exactly what I have in DB. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:14
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Some of you guys do realise that Froome has already been downgraded on this DB to 78TT, so there's no need to talk about downgrading him.
Now something worth bearing in mind, that earlier this year Froome stated that the Giro was more suited to him than the Tour because of the long TT's and he knew he'd have a big advantage over some of his rivals, but due to the prestige of the Tour and the pressure from his team the Tour it was. I personally believe that in a long TT (even though he hasn't done one in a while) Froome would be taking huge amounts of time anyway out of a rider like Quintana so he needs to be among the best in TT. Even riders like Boonen who haven't done too much on the cobbles in recent years more or less have kept their level, so no reason why Froome shouldn't be the same in TT.
I'd go with 80 for Porte, because 81 (even though he can climb like an 81) is probably too high considering his high TT skills. Porte has proven himself to be a domestique deluxe and the best example of one and he's impressive as a week long team leader as well. I think to even consider giving a rider 81 in this DB he needs to have at least reached a podium or nearly a podium in recent years (of course depending on the quality of the field)
@Croatia
Nah Greipel's mtn stat is cool as it is. The logic of this is that tired riders like Greipel, Kristoff and Cav after a very mountainous tour are not going to win as easily as they would do on a more normal tour, which means riders like EBH even with a much lower sprint can still challenge. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:18
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Some of you guys do realise that Froome has already been downgraded on this DB to 78TT, so there's no need to talk about downgrading him.
Now something worth bearing in mind, that earlier this year Froome stated that the Giro was more suited to him than the Tour because of the long TT's and he knew he'd have a big advantage over some of his rivals, but due to the prestige of the Tour and the pressure from his team the Tour it was. I personally believe that in a long TT (even though he hasn't done one in a while) Froome would be taking huge amounts of time anyway out of a rider like Quintana so he needs to be among the best in TT. Even riders like Boonen who haven't done too much on the cobbles in recent years more or less have kept their level, so no reason why Froome shouldn't be the same in TT.
I'd go with 80 for Porte, because 81 (even though he can climb like an 81) is probably too high considering his high TT skills. Porte has proven himself to be a domestique deluxe and the best example of one and he's impressive as a week long team leader as well. I think to even consider giving a rider 81 in this DB he needs to have at least reached a podium or nearly a podium in recent years (of course depending on the quality of the field)
@Croatia
Nah Greipel's mtn stat is cool as it is. The logic of this is that tired riders like Greipel, Kristoff and Cav after a very mountainous tour are not going to win as easily as they would do on a more normal tour, which means riders like EBH even with a much lower sprint can still challenge.
So in this case EBH needs to have higher rec |
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| contsupreme |
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:19
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Junior Rider
Posts: 40
Joined: 18-11-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Don't you think bobby jungels deserves a stat upgrade after his 13th on alpe dhuez |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 26-07-2015 22:30
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@fidjim
Well EBH has 77 which is high and Greipel has 74, also if both riders are just riding the mountain stages and not racing or attacking then EBH should use less energy than Greipel anyway, so I think it's quite well balanced, of course the only way to test this is to play the Tour itself.
One thing I will say that based on this Cav probably doesn't deserve an 80 REC which is really high because I don't think he has those recovery powers anymore.
I think that the DB needs a REC check on some of the sprinters anyway, because I think riders like Greipel can recover better than Cavendish.
@contsupreme
I always thought Jungels at 70 mtn was too low anyway and have him at 74 but his REC is low, so he's capable of getting in a mountainous break and doing well on chosen days. |
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| andrea |
Posted on 27-07-2015 09:19
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Amateur
Posts: 1
Joined: 10-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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First of all,hello to everyone!
Talking about downhill,i think Nibali is overrated,78 is right,sagan bardet and tony martin are the best in dh now |
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 09:25
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
Joined: 21-10-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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andrea wrote:
First of all,hello to everyone!
Talking about downhill,i think Nibali is overrated,78 is right,sagan bardet and tony martin are the best in dh now
lol Nibali is no meeting overrated. I agree that Sagan is the best. |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 11:54
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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andrea wrote:
First of all,hello to everyone!
Talking about downhill,i think Nibali is overrated,78 is right,sagan bardet and tony martin are the best in dh now
Yeah, why not set froome 85 in DH, thats so realistic. First of all, you havent seen his dh if you says he deserves 78, + when nibali tried to attack in the dh (le tour) he didnt use any effort while froome had to Close the gap and used alot of it |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:12
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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dark_x2012 wrote:
WTF I almost think the same with Arberg.  Just kidding, no offence man. Only Hesjedal and Frank a bit too high for my liking(maybe -1). Also lower Quintana's Acceleration about 75. 
Edit: Forgot about Froome's TT
I don't agree With Quintanas acc, should be at least 80, if u have seen him in the alpes |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:19
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
kissaha wrote:
And why that high REC on Froome? Also, as far as I know, RES dictates how long a rider can keep a certain effort, and how fast bars reload after attacks. We've seen on the last two stages that Quintana attacks multiple times and can keep his effort high over a long period of time. I don't think Froome should have that much higher than Nairo, if higher at all.
See stage 10.
Either Froome had a more mountain and low REC
OR
Must they had the same mountain and Froome more RES and Quintana more REC.
The reason why froome won stage 10 wa becuse hehad a good recovery progam in the restday, since Team sky has a muh better economy than other teams, so they can concentrate more on Things like that, while riders like contador had to sleep in roomswith 35 degreece, nothing about how good they are in flat |
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| tobgunn123 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:24
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Under 23
Posts: 61
Joined: 13-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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[quote]Riis123 wrote:
83 - Froome Quintana
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81 - Nibali Contador Landa[/quote haha, yep... landa, who got owned n the giro by Alberto contador even With 4 teammates when contado have 0 in the Mountains, and they are the same in mounains...... |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:29
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
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tobgunn123 wrote:
dark_x2012 wrote:
WTF I almost think the same with Arberg. Just kidding, no offence man. Only Hesjedal and Frank a bit too high for my liking(maybe -1). Also lower Quintana's Acceleration about 75.
Edit: Forgot about Froome's TT
I don't agree With Quintanas acc, should be at least 80, if u have seen him in the alpes
Quintana can't accelerate. Thet's why he couldn't get rid of Froome the first stages. Valverde, Purito they deserve 80+. Quintana doesn't accelerate better than Nibali. The reason he was so good in the Alps was his better REC which affects all his attributes.
Edited by dark_x2012 on 27-07-2015 12:31
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| jt1109 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:30
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3214
Joined: 23-07-2008
PCM$: 400.00
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tobgunn123 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
kissaha wrote:
And why that high REC on Froome? Also, as far as I know, RES dictates how long a rider can keep a certain effort, and how fast bars reload after attacks. We've seen on the last two stages that Quintana attacks multiple times and can keep his effort high over a long period of time. I don't think Froome should have that much higher than Nairo, if higher at all.
See stage 10.
Either Froome had a more mountain and low REC
OR
Must they had the same mountain and Froome more RES and Quintana more REC.
The reason why froome won stage 10 wa becuse hehad a good recovery progam in the restday, since Team sky has a muh better economy than other teams, so they can concentrate more on Things like that, while riders like contador had to sleep in roomswith 35 degreece, nothing about how good they are in flat
That's not what recovery does in the game though Recovery is how much energy they can keep during multiple stages and as Quintana showed in 2013 and 2015 he is the best in the final few stages of GT so he showed he should have more recovery then Froome IMO
Edited by jt1109 on 27-07-2015 12:44
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| Ton1Mart1n |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:39
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Domestique
Posts: 400
Joined: 14-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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jt1109 wrote:
tobgunn123 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
kissaha wrote:
And why that high REC on Froome? Also, as far as I know, RES dictates how long a rider can keep a certain effort, and how fast bars reload after attacks. We've seen on the last two stages that Quintana attacks multiple times and can keep his effort high over a long period of time. I don't think Froome should have that much higher than Nairo, if higher at all.
See stage 10.
Either Froome had a more mountain and low REC
OR
Must they had the same mountain and Froome more RES and Quintana more REC.
The reason why froome won stage 10 wa becuse hehad a good recovery progam in the restday, since Team sky has a muh better economy than other teams, so they can concentrate more on Things like that, while riders like contador had to sleep in roomswith 35 degreece, nothing about how good they are in flat
That's not what recovery does in the game though Recovery is how much energy they can keep during multiple stages and as Quintana showed in 2013 and 2015 he is the best in the final few stages of GT so he showed have more then Froome IMO
Your comment doesnt make any sense. Just because Quintana has been better at the end of GT's and Froomes is always better in the beginning of GT's doesnt mean Quintanas MO stats should be higher. This is a question of recovery and stamina.
In my book they both need to ave 84 IMO but Quintana a bit higher REC.
+2/3...
“When it’s hurting you, that’s when you can make a difference”
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| jt1109 |
Posted on 27-07-2015 12:43
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3214
Joined: 23-07-2008
PCM$: 400.00
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Ton1Mart1n wrote:
Your comment doesnt make any sense. Just because Quintana has been better at the end of GT's and Froomes is always better in the beginning of GT's doesnt mean Quintanas MO stats should be higher. This is a question of recovery and stamina.
In my book they both need to ave 84 IMO but Quintana a bit higher REC.
+2/3...
I meant Recovery should be higher sorry if this was misinterpreted I just thought it was obvious with me talking about the end of grand tours the quote I used saying Froome recovery should be the same because he recovered well for the 10th stage |
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