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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 22:56
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
“For that 41:30, Chris had an average power of 414 watts, which gives a 1602 VAM. We know power Osymetric chainrings (used by Froome) over estimate power by about 6 per cent. That’s why it has to be considered when interpreting Chris’ power. With his weight hovering around 67.5kg that gives a correct power of 5.78 watts per kilo.”
- Tim Kerrison, Sky
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-...m-stage-10
414/68 = 6.09 w/kg
Not sure about the osymetric chainrings?
Yup, that is the estimate the pseudoscientists found as well.
Cio: Well I thought the same, apparantly Sky's logic behind this is they estimate that using the chainrings basically makes them ride 6% faster up the mountains, thus reaching 5,78 w/kg with the same chainrings as the others, another example at the marginal gains not being that marginal. Either way, hilarious to state that. I cant comprehend how they can be serious about those chainrings, I mean, if it really meant that they would go that much faster, why wouldnt everyone else do it? I simply refuse to believe that. |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 21-07-2015 22:58
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
“For that 41:30, Chris had an average power of 414 watts, which gives a 1602 VAM. We know power Osymetric chainrings (used by Froome) over estimate power by about 6 per cent. That’s why it has to be considered when interpreting Chris’ power. With his weight hovering around 67.5kg that gives a correct power of 5.78 watts per kilo.”
- Tim Kerrison, Sky
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-...m-stage-10
414/68 = 6.09 w/kg
Not sure about the osymetric chainrings?
Veloclinic suggests an upper estimate of 5.95W/kg
https://veloclinic...-5-95-w-kg
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:04
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Well, maybe Gesink rode with the same chainring and didn't take into account the 6% overestimation?
Would be interesting to see if the 'pseudoscientists' take this into account (if it's indeed true). |
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:05
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Riis123 wrote:
FroomeDog99 wrote:
“For that 41:30, Chris had an average power of 414 watts, which gives a 1602 VAM. We know power Osymetric chainrings (used by Froome) over estimate power by about 6 per cent. That’s why it has to be considered when interpreting Chris’ power. With his weight hovering around 67.5kg that gives a correct power of 5.78 watts per kilo.”
- Tim Kerrison, Sky
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-...m-stage-10
414/68 = 6.09 w/kg
Not sure about the osymetric chainrings?
Yup, that is the estimate the pseudoscientists found as well.
Cio: Well I thought the same, apparantly Sky's logic behind this is they estimate that using the chainrings basically makes them ride 6% faster up the mountains, thus reaching 5,78 w/kg with the same chainrings as the others, another example at the marginal gains not being that marginal. Either way, hilarious to state that. I cant comprehend how they can be serious about those chainrings, I mean, if it really meant that they would go that much faster, why wouldnt everyone else do it? I simply refuse to believe that.
Or it could just be the chainring produces a wrong reading that is 106% of the actual average wattage.
Edit: Thanks Crommy, some interesting numbers. Could be another reason to Gesink's higher reading than Sky's.
Edited by FroomeDog99 on 21-07-2015 23:28
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| cio93 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:08
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
FroomeDog99 wrote:
“For that 41:30, Chris had an average power of 414 watts, which gives a 1602 VAM. We know power Osymetric chainrings (used by Froome) over estimate power by about 6 per cent. That’s why it has to be considered when interpreting Chris’ power. With his weight hovering around 67.5kg that gives a correct power of 5.78 watts per kilo.”
- Tim Kerrison, Sky
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-...m-stage-10
414/68 = 6.09 w/kg
Not sure about the osymetric chainrings?
Yup, that is the estimate the pseudoscientists found as well.
Cio: Well I thought the same, apparantly Sky's logic behind this is they estimate that using the chainrings basically makes them ride 6% faster up the mountains, thus reaching 5,78 w/kg with the same chainrings as the others, another example at the marginal gains not being that marginal. Either way, hilarious to state that. I cant comprehend how they can be serious about those chainrings, I mean, if it really meant that they would go that much faster, why wouldnt everyone else do it? I simply refuse to believe that.
Or it could just be the chainring produces a wrong reading that is 106% of the actual average wattage.
That was my first thought too, but wouldn't the VAM be off too then? I mean that's a number we can put in relation to the actual result and it's derived from the w/kg.
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| Movistar |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:14
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Domestique
Posts: 424
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FroomeDog99 wrote:
“For that 41:30, Chris had an average power of 414 watts, which gives a 1602 VAM. We know power Osymetric chainrings (used by Froome) over estimate power by about 6 per cent. That’s why it has to be considered when interpreting Chris’ power. With his weight hovering around 67.5kg that gives a correct power of 5.78 watts per kilo.”
- Tim Kerrison, Sky
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-...m-stage-10
414/68 = 6.09 w/kg
Not sure about the osymetric chainrings?
How do they over estimate power lol. If that was the case every fucking rider in the world would use one. They dont do anything except give SKY another excuse. |
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| Movistar |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:17
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Domestique
Posts: 424
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Or it could just be the chainring produces a wrong reading that is 106% of the actual average wattage.
Edit: Thanks Crommy, some interesting numbers. Could be another estimation to Gesink's higher reading than Sky's.
How could the chainring produce a wrong reading? If it more efficient which is what SKY claims then your power will go up.
If it actually did what those losers at SKY claim, 100% of the riders in the peloton would be using it. |
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:18
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Froomey: Yeah, thats probably the case. If thats the case, well, it just seems nothing more than a lie |
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| FroomeDog99 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:23
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Movistar wrote:
FroomeDog99 wrote:
“For that 41:30, Chris had an average power of 414 watts, which gives a 1602 VAM. We know power Osymetric chainrings (used by Froome) over estimate power by about 6 per cent. That’s why it has to be considered when interpreting Chris’ power. With his weight hovering around 67.5kg that gives a correct power of 5.78 watts per kilo.”
- Tim Kerrison, Sky
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-...m-stage-10
414/68 = 6.09 w/kg
Not sure about the osymetric chainrings?
How do they over estimate power lol. If that was the case every fucking rider in the world would use one. They dont do anything except give SKY another excuse.
As I said above, an incorrect reading is probably a more realistic interpretation.
Cio - Not totally familiar with VAM, but if it is derived from w/kg surely an adjusted figure because of the incorrect reading because of the chainring would lead to a correct VAM figure? (Presumably this adjustment has been used in the sky figure?) |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:31
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I have little actual knowledge that doesn't come from trying to understand people who already done the math, and it's a bit late.
But my understanding is that ascend time, VAM and w/kg are linked so w/kg can't be wrong in purely a measurement way if we use the ascend time and Froome's weight.
That means they're saying Froome produced 5.78 w/kg but the chainring is so efficient that it adds whatever's lacking to the 5.95-6.09 w/kg that were measured.
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| wogsrus |
Posted on 21-07-2015 23:35
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Another element we are not talking about is Strava itself, where Gesink, Yates etc power estimates came from. It doesn't exactly produce accurate power measurements.
https://freetrispe...and-hills/
Also, wrote a blog, very relevant to the whole piss throwing and punching incidents. Check it out, and read the comments below the article if you need further clarification.
https://www.theroa...formances/ |
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| Dee-Jay |
Posted on 22-07-2015 00:05
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wogsrus wrote:
Another element we are not talking about is Strava itself, where Gesink, Yates etc power estimates came from. It doesn't exactly produce accurate power measurements.
https://freetrispe...and-hills/
Also, wrote a blog, very relevant to the whole piss throwing and punching incidents. Check it out, and read the comments below the article if you need further clarification.
https://www.theroa...formances/
Bravo Sir! I read the blog. At last, a voice of reason instead of people throwing around numbers and scientific concepts which they dont really understand.
Do what this guy says and wait for evidence before you go slating Brailsford and Froome for doping.
By all means complain about tactics etc. |
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| wogsrus |
Posted on 22-07-2015 00:07
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Dee-Jay wrote:
wogsrus wrote:
Another element we are not talking about is Strava itself, where Gesink, Yates etc power estimates came from. It doesn't exactly produce accurate power measurements.
https://freetrispe...and-hills/
Also, wrote a blog, very relevant to the whole piss throwing and punching incidents. Check it out, and read the comments below the article if you need further clarification.
https://www.theroa...formances/
Bravo Sir! I read the blog. At last, a voice of reason instead of people throwing around numbers and scientific concepts which they dont really understand.
Do what this guy says and wait for evidence before you go slating Brailsford and Froome for doping.
By all means complain about tactics etc. I like the work of Ross Tucker and other sport scientists. Though, they don't provide 100% proof, but do paint a picture of performances. They are good for judging performances, but people using the work in isolation of other factors is extremely stupid.
They are doing some great work in terms of keeping the conversation about doping going, and holding the riders to account if their performances are out of line of what is expected, or achievable.
People like this are as neccessary as the doping testers in the fight for clean sport. |
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| ianrussell |
Posted on 22-07-2015 00:59
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Speaking of Tucker his latest article is interesting reading with real life examples from Pinot (who released all of his training data a while back from the last few years - the post might look long but will only take all of 10-15 minutes to read so worthwhile if you are genuinely interested in having a better understanding):
https://sportsscie...hysiology/
With regard to the oval chain ring thing I don't know why this should be the case but apparently Andrew Coggan has shown this back in 2006:
Edited by ianrussell on 22-07-2015 01:04
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| ianrussell |
Posted on 22-07-2015 00:59
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Of course for what any of this is worth. What Pinot has done seems a way forward though with subsequent analysis. |
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| wogsrus |
Posted on 22-07-2015 01:27
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There are also a good few tweets by Dan Lloyd on why certain riders may not want to release power data.
https://www.cyclin...ata-183677
Interesting article on Froome's data.
To be fair to Sky, they have done pretty well going into detail when providing information. Just wish we saw it from other riders as well. |
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| Movistar |
Posted on 22-07-2015 04:35
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Domestique
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To be fair to Sky, they have done pretty well going into detail when providing information. Just wish we saw it from other riders as well.
How have they dont a good job? By calling everyone else with scientific credentials or knowledge "pseudo-scientist"? Or by trying to tell us this oval chain ring is so efficient it accounts for a 90 second gap on a climb. |
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| Strydz |
Posted on 22-07-2015 06:27
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wogsrus wrote:
Another element we are not talking about is Strava itself, where Gesink, Yates etc power estimates came from. It doesn't exactly produce accurate power measurements.
https://freetrispe...and-hills/
Also, wrote a blog, very relevant to the whole piss throwing and punching incidents. Check it out, and read the comments below the article if you need further clarification.
https://www.theroa...formances/
When you upload your ride to Strava it gives you a watts estimate which will be incorrect but when you upload having used a power meter like Gesink, Yates have done then Stava takes the power estimate of the power meter and doesn't use its own estimate, thus meaning Genisnk's and Yates files from that day are correct. Which means they apparently have put out more W/KG than Froome.
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
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| Strydz |
Posted on 22-07-2015 06:37
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cio93 wrote:
Wait. Isn't "overestimating a power output by 6%" practically the same as "increasing your performance by 6%"?
If so, I'm very interested who uses those chainrings because they're basically riding a separate race then.
If not, I'm just tired.
Overestimating power output isn't increasing performance at all it just means you are getting incorrect readings due to the shape of the rings, there is no diffrenece in actual performance. The the overestimation means it gives you a higher reading than what the power file will say so you need to subtract x% to gain an accurate reading. With Quarq for instance it's around 2% and with stages (which is what Sky use) it's between 4-5%. Now what I find confusing is that Kerrison and Sky are subtracting 6% from Frrome's power file to come to his W/p kg, Stages have stated its 4-5% and other independent users also say this is correct so Sky have got this wrong.
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
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| Strydz |
Posted on 22-07-2015 06:52
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Another interesting thing is Froome's apprent weight gain, in 2013 at the Tour Froome himself said he weighed in at 66 kgs yet they claim this year at the Tour he weighs 67.5 kgs, did Froome really gain 1.5 kgs in the time between? That's alot of weight for a GC contender to gain. Also what I don't understand is Brailsford saying on several occasions they don't weigh riders but yet he knows the power numbers, you can't ever get correct numbers if you don't take a riders weight into calculation. For a team that prides itself on attention to detail they come up short on details
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald
https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/ |
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