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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 18:26
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Tafiolmo wrote:
To be fair I think all of you (Dark, Alex and Aizak) are raising some good points about the sprinters but I would keep Cavendish at 82 because he is the best natural sprinter here. Greipel 81/82 depending on final stage and if he has a showdown with Cav as anything can happen.
Degenkolb and Kristoff are pure classics sprinters (big endurance) at 80 and 81 which is good for them, but I'd keep Kristoff at 81 because Degenkolb has a superior acc stat.
Sagan is the only one that is really incorrect, most Db's have him on 78 which is crazy, he should be at lowest 79 and at best 80, personally I'd say 80 which what he was usually in the 2012 and 2013 dbs.
It's a shame about Bouhanni because we could've seen how good he really was against a top rank field.
I would give greipel 82 sp because is acc is lower than guys like kitten or cavendish |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 18:31
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That's a good point which convinces me that Geipel should go back upto 82 again which he used to be anyway.
As for using Kittel as an example, he couldn't even beat my old granny in a sprint. |
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| Ad Bot |
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 21:04
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Tafiolmo wrote:
To be fair I think all of you (Dark, Alex and Aizak) are raising some good points about the sprinters but I would keep Cavendish at 82 because he is the best natural sprinter here. Greipel 81/82 depending on final stage and if he has a showdown with Cav as anything can happen.
Degenkolb and Kristoff are pure classics sprinters (big endurance) at 80 and 81 which is good for them, but I'd keep Kristoff at 81 because Degenkolb has a superior acc stat.
Sagan is the only one that is really incorrect, most Db's have him on 78 which is crazy, he should be at lowest 79 and at best 80, personally I'd say 80 which what he was usually in the 2012 and 2013 dbs.
It's a shame about Bouhanni because we could've seen how good he really was against a top rank field.
As you said, Kristoff is a classics sprinter, and Greipel as a pure one needs to have an advantage to cover his lower support stats.
I think most will agree, with categorising Greipel, Cavendish and Kittel as the Top tier of pure Sprinters, and this has to be representated in the stats.
the Degekolbs, kristoffs and Sagans have to be somewhat lower (1 or 2 lower) to balance the powers |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:12
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Sprinter
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As you said, Kristoff is a classics sprinter, and Greipel as a pure one needs to have an advantage to cover his lower support stats.
I think most will agree, with categorising Greipel, Cavendish and Kittel as the Top tier of pure Sprinters, and this has to be representated in the stats.
the Degekolbs, kristoffs and Sagans have to be somewhat lower (1 or 2 lower) to balance the powers
This all sounds good and I guess that Sagan has to be at least 80 sprint here. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:18
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Buuut with 80 sprint Sagan would actually win stuff 
Nah seriously though, Sagan's ACC is way superior to any of his 79-81 sprint rivals at least, so that would probably overpower him on 80. 79 is a fair shout though, I think that's what we have him on currently.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:22
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Jesleyh wrote:
Buuut with 80 sprint Sagan would actually win stuff
Nah seriously though, Sagan's ACC is way superior to any of his 79-81 sprint rivals at least, so that would probably overpower him on 80. 79 is a fair shout though, I think that's what we have him on currently.
79 is perfect for sagan because he has already high acc comparable to cav and kittel |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:24
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Jesleyh wrote:
Buuut with 80 sprint Sagan would actually win stuff
Nah seriously though, Sagan's ACC is way superior to any of his 79-81 sprint rivals at least, so that would probably overpower him on 80. 79 is a fair shout though, I think that's what we have him on currently.
I have him at 79 as well but he actually does win stuff like the green jersey and looks like doing it again this year as well, so he has to always score enough points for that. In the past I had him at 79 sprint, but upped it to 80 just for the Tour and that normally makes him a favourite for the green jersey with his other stats. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:32
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I think 79 is perfect for him |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:37
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Sagan is very consistent for a sprinter with mostly top 5 during this tour de france but if we put him on 80 SP he will be actually stronger in the game and will contest for wins |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:40
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Sprinter
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I think the real problem here is that nobody wants Sagan to actually win a sprint, so they'll do everything to keep him down. But then again until he actually does win a sprint I guess you all have a strong case. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 19-07-2015 22:44
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Obviously we can't stop him to win a TdF sprint. That's not possible and not something we want to achieve. Just don't want him to win structurely which is what could happen on 80SP, especially considering his high ACC(83 isn't it?) which makes him stronger than most 80 sprinters on 79 already.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 23:10
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Jesleyh wrote:
Obviously we can't stop him to win a TdF sprint. That's not possible and not something we want to achieve. Just don't want him to win structurely which is what could happen on 80SP, especially considering his high ACC(83 isn't it?) which makes him stronger than most 80 sprinters on 79 already.
If I remember correctly the last two TdF that I've raced on PCM14 Sagan was on 80 just for the tour and I think he only won one sprint stage in those two tours, he did manage to win the green jersey in one, while Kittel won it in the other but he did finish second behind Kittel for green, so I don't think having Sagan on 80 to be really that unrealistic.
I found when he was on 79 he really struggled to make an impact for the green jersey and always finished outside the top three by Paris. |
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| morrie |
Posted on 20-07-2015 11:59
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and what about the sprinting stats of cyclists like demare, bos, ciolek, matthews? |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 20-07-2015 12:08
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Demare should have 79 imo.
Bos didn't show anything, so I'm not really sure. Maybe 75.
Ciolek maybe 76
Matthews is clearly hurt atm, but he can't stand a chance against the big sprinters, or Degenkolb for that matter. 77 is alright for me, since he has 77 HI as well.
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 20-07-2015 12:13
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The biggest problem for me regarding Sagan is that currently he's the 4th best sprinter after Kittel, Cavendish and Greipel. And I can't agree on him being bellow Degenkolb(maybe equal is fine) and moreover 2 points bellow Kristoff. I guess he would actually start winning if he was on 80 sprint which is unrealistic But still currently Kristoff has the advantage against him. I guess lowering everybody except the top 3 and Sagan would do the job but this sounds like too much work for the DB editors  |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 20-07-2015 12:33
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dark_x2012 wrote:
The biggest problem for me regarding Sagan is that currently he's the 4th best sprinter after Kittel, Cavendish and Greipel. And I can't agree on him being bellow Degenkolb(maybe equal is fine) and moreover 2 points bellow Kristoff. I guess he would actually start winning if he was on 80 sprint which is unrealistic But still currently Kristoff has the advantage against him. I guess lowering everybody except the top 3 and Sagan would do the job but this sounds like too much work for the DB editors
On the other hand, Sagan feels already like 80 SP, due to his great FL, HI, DH stats. He will be much fresher at the line as Cav, Kittel, Greipel and others.
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| lakebeach |
Posted on 20-07-2015 13:07
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Sagan in the break with the green jersey for the third day in a row. 85 fighter stat?
"It's very hard to work with other guys because nobody wants to work with me so it's better to drop everybody." - Peter Sagan |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 20-07-2015 16:38
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I agree with 85 fighter stat |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 20-07-2015 16:41
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Paul23 wrote:
dark_x2012 wrote:
The biggest problem for me regarding Sagan is that currently he's the 4th best sprinter after Kittel, Cavendish and Greipel. And I can't agree on him being bellow Degenkolb(maybe equal is fine) and moreover 2 points bellow Kristoff. I guess he would actually start winning if he was on 80 sprint which is unrealistic But still currently Kristoff has the advantage against him. I guess lowering everybody except the top 3 and Sagan would do the job but this sounds like too much work for the DB editors
On the other hand, Sagan feels already like 80 SP, due to his great FL, HI, DH stats. He will be much fresher at the line as Cav, Kittel, Greipel and others.
I agree that he should be much lower than Kittel, Cav and Greipel. I disagree with him being 2 points down on Kristoff and one on Degenkolb for example. |
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| morrie |
Posted on 20-07-2015 16:44
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Maybe a small downgrade on hill and mountain stats of Johnny Hoogerland? But of course keep his fighting spirit around 80 |
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