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When is it Mountain, Hill or Flat ?
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| katulen |
Posted on 16-07-2015 15:25
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Free Agent
Posts: 137
Joined: 16-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Dear Pcm Daily.
Im enjoying PCM 2015 alot in these days, and i wondered alot how the mechanic worked regards flat, hill and mountain.
I assume 0% "steapness" is flat, but when and what % will it be a "hill" ? at 2% or ?? And the same question regard to mountain - at what % will it be mountain stats used ?
I tryid to look it up, but could only find something about when its a flat, hill or mountain stage - but not how it determines what stat to use.
Best regards
Kat |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 16-07-2015 15:33
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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I believe the switch is at 5%, but I am not 100% sure.
Mountain/hill ratio gets decided before the stage. Huez stage would be 100% mountain, Cauberg would be 100% hill, Cauterets climb of yesterday on its own would be about 50/50 I think.
However the ratio gets defined for the whole stage, the ratio would probably be 80% mountain and 20% hills for the whole stage in yesterday's TdF stage considering the rest of the climbs.
(Tourmalet will therefore have a MO/HI ratio exactly the same as the final climb, if you get what I mean)
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Lamba |
Posted on 16-07-2015 16:12
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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@Jesleyh:
Katulen and I have been talking about the stats on this stream https://www.twitch...rapsoulish with the guy who kind of helped both of us with our careers.
My guess was that it was a mountain when above 4.5 or 5%. In the browsergame (I played a couple of years back) it was around those numbers. It came up because we discussed how much focus to put on the hill attribute when building a stage rider.
I'm currently building a stage rider by training first puncher (until hill is 80 and at least 3 higher than the mountain stat) and then climber.
That way I will have a rider who has good physical stats, high acceleration, hill and mountain and decent (75'ish) TT and prologue. |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 16-07-2015 16:33
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Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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To clarify on what Jesleyh said - as I don't think it is entirely clear 
Each stage has a H/M rating in the game. Where this is 1 then Mountain stat is all that matters on the climbs during that stage. Doesn't matter if they are 1%, 10%, 0.1%, 7%, whatever - only Mountain stat counts. If the H/M rating is 0 then it is only Hill stat that counts - again, whatever the gradient. A ratio between 0 and 1 will see some form of combination of Hill and Mountain stat being used.
This ratio is either calculated automatically, or decided by the stage maker. The automatic rating tends to favour the Mountain stat - even on stages that are Hill rated.
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| katulen |
Posted on 16-07-2015 19:43
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Free Agent
Posts: 137
Joined: 16-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Okay thanks alot guys  |
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| Lamba |
Posted on 17-07-2015 12:22
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Stagiare
Posts: 150
Joined: 15-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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SportingNonsense wrote:
To clarify on what Jesleyh said - as I don't think it is entirely clear
Each stage has a H/M rating in the game. Where this is 1 then Mountain stat is all that matters on the climbs during that stage. Doesn't matter if they are 1%, 10%, 0.1%, 7%, whatever - only Mountain stat counts. If the H/M rating is 0 then it is only Hill stat that counts - again, whatever the gradient. A ratio between 0 and 1 will see some form of combination of Hill and Mountain stat being used.
This ratio is either calculated automatically, or decided by the stage maker. The automatic rating tends to favour the Mountain stat - even on stages that are Hill rated.
Thanks!
I need to go back to the drawing board then. No reason to spend so much time training puncher to get hill rating up that high then. It just seemed a good idea, looking at other top riders for the GC. |
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| blackbox |
Posted on 17-07-2015 12:53
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Junior Rider
Posts: 46
Joined: 24-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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so this is valid not only for simulations, but also for played races?
so a race that is 50 % flate, 30% hilly and 20% mountain will take that flat stats into account only, when the stage is marked as flat?
I think with an 60 flat, 80 hill and 70 mountain rider I should have problems on the flat, be great on the hills and keep up with the pack on the mountain...
Please tell me which one is more accurate! |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 17-07-2015 12:59
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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Flat races have a ratio of 0, so only the hill stat counts (combined with FL up to a certain % incline).
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-07-2015 13:15
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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This is how it works:
Each stage as a mountain/hill ratio.
At the beginning of the stage, the game calculates the combined MO/HI stat for all riders using that ratio.
When a rider is on the flat, the flat stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the effort of the rider.
When the rider is riding uphill (5% and steeper) the calculated MO/HI stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the actual effort of the rider.
The heart rate decides which bars and how fast the bars are depleting. |
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| ramtam |
Posted on 17-07-2015 13:41
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Junior Rider
Posts: 29
Joined: 16-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Lachi wrote:
This is how it works:
Each stage as a mountain/hill ratio.
At the beginning of the stage, the game calculates the combined MO/HI stat for all riders using that ratio.
When a rider is on the flat, the flat stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the effort of the rider.
When the rider is riding uphill (5% and steeper) the calculated MO/HI stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the actual effort of the rider.
The heart rate decides which bars and how fast the bars are depleting.
So basically just another example of bad, stupid or just lazy design. Instead of putting in the basics of taking the relevant stat to each part of the stage and let the result be the outcome of all the interactions and processes, they just hard code the end result. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 03:31
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 17-07-2015 14:07
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Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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ramtam wrote:
Lachi wrote:
This is how it works:
Each stage as a mountain/hill ratio.
At the beginning of the stage, the game calculates the combined MO/HI stat for all riders using that ratio.
When a rider is on the flat, the flat stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the effort of the rider.
When the rider is riding uphill (5% and steeper) the calculated MO/HI stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the actual effort of the rider.
The heart rate decides which bars and how fast the bars are depleting.
So basically just another example of bad, stupid or just lazy design. Instead of putting in the basics of taking the relevant stat to each part of the stage and let the result be the outcome of all the interactions and processes, they just hard code the end result.
Well, you are interpreting the hill and mountain stat as if they relate to abilities on a particular gradient.
Actually, it is more that Hill stat represents strength on shorter climbs - which can still be pretty steep - and Mountain stat represents strength on the bigger, longer climbs. With that in mind, I think the system works just fine.
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| ramtam |
Posted on 17-07-2015 17:55
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Junior Rider
Posts: 29
Joined: 16-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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SportingNonsense wrote:
ramtam wrote:
Lachi wrote:
This is how it works:
Each stage as a mountain/hill ratio.
At the beginning of the stage, the game calculates the combined MO/HI stat for all riders using that ratio.
When a rider is on the flat, the flat stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the effort of the rider.
When the rider is riding uphill (5% and steeper) the calculated MO/HI stat is used to calculate the heart rate based on the actual effort of the rider.
The heart rate decides which bars and how fast the bars are depleting.
So basically just another example of bad, stupid or just lazy design. Instead of putting in the basics of taking the relevant stat to each part of the stage and let the result be the outcome of all the interactions and processes, they just hard code the end result.
Well, you are interpreting the hill and mountain stat as if they relate to abilities on a particular gradient.
Actually, it is more that Hill stat represents strength on shorter climbs - which can still be pretty steep - and Mountain stat represents strength on the bigger, longer climbs. With that in mind, I think the system works just fine.
I'm well aware of that, but you realize that if a mountain stage has hills, the riders are judged based on their mo and not hill? At least according to what they describe here. That's exactly my point. If a certain segment of the stage is a hill then the stat that should affect it should be hill, regardless of what the rest of the stage looks like. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-07-2015 22:00
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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This is not bad design. And it has nothing to do with laziness or stupidity either.
Rather it is a performance issue. Just image how much calculating would be needed if the degree and the duration of the climb would be compared against the stats of each rider every second or more often if you fast-forward. |
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| ramtam |
Posted on 19-07-2015 12:12
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Junior Rider
Posts: 29
Joined: 16-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Lachi wrote:
This is not bad design. And it has nothing to do with laziness or stupidity either.
Rather it is a performance issue. Just image how much calculating would be needed if the degree and the duration of the climb would be compared against the stats of each rider every second or more often if you fast-forward.
Oh, I see. Yes, 100 calculations a second is indeed beyond the capabilities of current computers. Let's hope IBM develops a computer that can handle that, then they can really give commodore a run for their money. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 19-07-2015 13:43
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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It must be great to be totally clueless. Makes you feel smart, right? |
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| ramtam |
Posted on 19-07-2015 15:03
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Junior Rider
Posts: 29
Joined: 16-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Lachi wrote:
It must be great to be totally clueless. Makes you feel smart, right?
About as much as your ad hominem argument makes you feel smart. Are you seriously trying to say that segmenting a stage to flat/hill/mountain parts and then using the relevant stat for each segment is beyond the ability of modern age computers? |
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| Uludag |
Posted on 20-07-2015 20:30
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Amateur
Posts: 5
Joined: 05-07-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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I'm somehow happy, that my stream got mentioned by two of my chat friends in twitch. 
PS rapsoulish is my account
Edited by Uludag on 20-07-2015 20:55
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| Dee-Jay |
Posted on 21-07-2015 12:47
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Free Agent
Posts: 129
Joined: 20-10-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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ramtam wrote:
Lachi wrote:
It must be great to be totally clueless. Makes you feel smart, right?
About as much as your ad hominem argument makes you feel smart. Are you seriously trying to say that segmenting a stage to flat/hill/mountain parts and then using the relevant stat for each segment is beyond the ability of modern age computers?
Despite his aggressive put down, i can see Lachi's argument. It is a simplification but i cant see a smallish dev team like cyanides producing a complex set of calculations. How old is the race engine again ? In reality it doesnt work out too bad as mountain climbers tend to be good on both Hill and Mtn stats whereas true puncheurs tend to have lower mtn stats but higher acceleration to enable them to beat the bona fide climbers up the likes of the Muurs. |
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| ramtam |
Posted on 22-07-2015 10:38
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Junior Rider
Posts: 29
Joined: 16-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Dee-Jay wrote:
ramtam wrote:
Lachi wrote:
It must be great to be totally clueless. Makes you feel smart, right?
About as much as your ad hominem argument makes you feel smart. Are you seriously trying to say that segmenting a stage to flat/hill/mountain parts and then using the relevant stat for each segment is beyond the ability of modern age computers?
Despite his aggressive put down, i can see Lachi's argument. It is a simplification but i cant see a smallish dev team like cyanides producing a complex set of calculations. How old is the race engine again ? In reality it doesnt work out too bad as mountain climbers tend to be good on both Hill and Mtn stats whereas true puncheurs tend to have lower mtn stats but higher acceleration to enable them to beat the bona fide climbers up the likes of the Muurs.
Yes, as a very coarse approximation it works fine. However, pinning it on computation limits of current computers is ridiculous. As for cyanide being a small team and all, I get it. They may be a small company, but that's no reason to stop trying to improve their product. With the current engine we'll never see a Sagan going over hills to try and win a stage and we'll never see hill specialists getting ahead on the last hill only to be overtaken by a faster rider on the last kilometer. In other words, there won't be any surprises or anyway to create your own strategies. On the other hand, laying down the basic physical rules will enable you to invent endless strategies and will make the game 10 fold more interesting and immersive. |
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| mtnman34 |
Posted on 22-07-2015 20:19
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Amateur
Posts: 1
Joined: 20-07-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Where would you find the Hi/Mo ratio for a stage in a database editor? |
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