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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion - PCM15
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 18-07-2015 11:13
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1070
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bob7 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is the best GT rider of his generation on a year by year basis, but even greats have bad tours. Not in the Tour de France since 2009. Froome and Sky has been dominant in the last 4 years in the Tour de France, except the last year because crash.
Maybe in the Giro and the Vuelta, where the opponent not has the same class or show up unprepared after an unlucky season. Just as Europe league in football.
Froome = FC Barcelona
Contador = Sevilla FC
Aarberg, please, calm down 
Sevilla is shit comparing to Barcelona. Froome only riding Tour, because Vuelta and Giro are difficult to win and he'll never win in Spain and Giro. That's why I rate Nibali over Froome (despite I hate Nibali). Imo winnig all 3 GT's are more significant than dominating Tour de France.
Giro and Vuelta = Europa League = Sevilla = Contador
Tour = Champions League = Barcelona = Froome |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 18-07-2015 11:14
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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I guess the forgot But still, it's weird to me, how fast can we forget what the cyclist did and still doing. |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 18-07-2015 11:15
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is the best GT rider of his generation on a year by year basis, but even greats have bad tours. Not in the Tour de France since 2009. Froome and Sky has been dominant in the last 4 years in the Tour de France, except the last year because crash.
Maybe in the Giro and the Vuelta, where the opponent not has the same class or show up unprepared after an unlucky season. Just as Europe league in football.
Froome = FC Barcelona
Contador = Sevilla FC
Aarberg, please, calm down
Sevilla is shit comparing to Barcelona. Froome only riding Tour, because Vuelta and Giro are difficult to win and he'll never win in Spain and Giro. That's why I rate Nibali over Froome (despite I hate Nibali). Imo winnig all 3 GT's are more significant than dominating Tour de France.
Giro and Vuelta = Europa League = Sevilla = Contador
Tour = Champions League = Barcelona = Froome
Trying to stop myselft joining in this analogy argument and instead pointing out you two are arguing over football clubs in a PCM stat discussion.
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| bob7 |
Posted on 18-07-2015 11:17
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Stagiare
Posts: 220
Joined: 27-01-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg27 wrote:
bob7 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is the best GT rider of his generation on a year by year basis, but even greats have bad tours. Not in the Tour de France since 2009. Froome and Sky has been dominant in the last 4 years in the Tour de France, except the last year because crash.
Maybe in the Giro and the Vuelta, where the opponent not has the same class or show up unprepared after an unlucky season. Just as Europe league in football.
Froome = FC Barcelona
Contador = Sevilla FC
Aarberg, please, calm down
Sevilla is shit comparing to Barcelona. Froome only riding Tour, because Vuelta and Giro are difficult to win and he'll never win in Spain and Giro. That's why I rate Nibali over Froome (despite I hate Nibali). Imo winnig all 3 GT's are more significant than dominating Tour de France.
Giro and Vuelta = Europa League = Sevilla = Contador
Tour = Champions League = Barcelona = Froome
Still no. Your reasonig are meaningles. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 18-07-2015 13:26
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Giro and Vuelta = Europa League = Sevilla = Contador
Tour = Champions League = Barcelona = Froome
You don't really come across as a true cycling fan with this kind of analogy, you're approaching this analogy from a strictly commercial marketing perspective. You almost have the 'Lance Armstrong' approach to cycling in that the Tour is the only thing that matters when it comes to GT's. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 18:19
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Bot Agent
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 18-07-2015 16:40
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
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In my opinion just now:
Froome 84
Quintana 83
Contador 83
Nibali 82
Valverde 81
Aru 81
Landa 80
Van Garderen 80
Pinot 80
Joaquim Rodriguez 80
Bardet 79 |
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| Lanxess |
Posted on 18-07-2015 16:41
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Free Agent
Posts: 110
Joined: 24-06-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Buchmann potential 7 + better MOU and HILL and REG
On the stage where he has got 3rd place,he climbs faster than Majka last climb...
dont forget |
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| silent_control |
Posted on 18-07-2015 18:48
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Under 23
Posts: 66
Joined: 28-06-2014
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bob7 wrote:
silent_control wrote:
"contador" & "Froome" I don't have to respond you, but I do. Decimate ? Who won Vuelta '14 ? Contador. Who was better in mountains ? Contador. Who did beat "the invincible" Froome ? Contador.
Well, he rode on Froome's wheel until the last km of the climb and then he attacked. Froome, instead, attacks/drops the opponents with several km of the climb left. Also don't forget that Froome had at least 2 stages in Vuelta 2014 where he was better than Contador.
And regarding Landa, he also had to work a lot for Aru.
In conclusion: all cyclist are better than Contador, but he won 9 GTs. Contador is just luckiest man in this world
It's weird how people just want to buff Contador for no reason.
Armstrong won 7 TDF. If we add him to the DB, would he deserve 85 MON? No.
Contador won 9 GT. I prefer to adjust stats taking the current form (mostly in the GTs) of the rider into consideration.
Let's see a few examples.
2013 TdF
People would consider Froome 83 MON, Contador 82. So, by logic, the huge gap between them on the climbs translates into +1 for Froome.
2014 Vuelta
I don't think that Contador deserves 1 more MON point than Froome, because the gap between them, on the climbs, wasn't that big (like in 2013 TdF, where +1 for Froome was justified).
2015 Giro
Landa proved to be the strongest climber. Discussions such as Contador being tired after the Mortirolo chase or trying to stay fresh for the Tour can be counterbalanced by the fact that Landa worked a lot for Aru and wasn't even allowed to race in some situations (the stages won by Aru, for example). Of course, it would be unwise to increase his mountain stat equally or higher than Contador's, but I think that a good value might be 1 or 2 lower than Contador's. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 18-07-2015 19:25
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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silent_control wrote:
bob7 wrote:
silent_control wrote:
"contador" & "Froome" I don't have to respond you, but I do. Decimate ? Who won Vuelta '14 ? Contador. Who was better in mountains ? Contador. Who did beat "the invincible" Froome ? Contador.
Well, he rode on Froome's wheel until the last km of the climb and then he attacked. Froome, instead, attacks/drops the opponents with several km of the climb left. Also don't forget that Froome had at least 2 stages in Vuelta 2014 where he was better than Contador.
And regarding Landa, he also had to work a lot for Aru.
In conclusion: all cyclist are better than Contador, but he won 9 GTs. Contador is just luckiest man in this world
It's weird how people just want to buff Contador for no reason.
Armstrong won 7 TDF. If we add him to the DB, would he deserve 85 MON? No.
Contador won 9 GT. I prefer to adjust stats taking the current form (mostly in the GTs) of the rider into consideration.
Let's see a few examples.
2013 TdF
People would consider Froome 83 MON, Contador 82. So, by logic, the huge gap between them on the climbs translates into +1 for Froome.
2014 Vuelta
I don't think that Contador deserves 1 more MON point than Froome, because the gap between them, on the climbs, wasn't that big (like in 2013 TdF, where +1 for Froome was justified).
2015 Giro
Landa proved to be the strongest climber. Discussions such as Contador being tired after the Mortirolo chase or trying to stay fresh for the Tour can be counterbalanced by the fact that Landa worked a lot for Aru and wasn't even allowed to race in some situations (the stages won by Aru, for example). Of course, it would be unwise to increase his mountain stat equally or higher than Contador's, but I think that a good value might be 1 or 2 lower than Contador's.
Which is why the pre-race form and daily form are important factors than simply making changes every race in the main stats. The problem is in game the pre-race and daily form are mostly random, if they could be controlled then you could maybe do a virtual replay of the current TdF. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 18-07-2015 20:14
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is the best GT rider of his generation on a year by year basis, but even greats have bad tours. Not in the Tour de France since 2009. Froome and Sky has been dominant in the last 4 years in the Tour de France, except the last year because crash.
Maybe in the Giro and the Vuelta, where the opponent not has the same class or show up unprepared after an unlucky season. Just as Europe league in football.
Froome = FC Barcelona
Contador = Sevilla FC
Well Contador won the Tour in 2010 but had it taken off him and didn't compete in 2012. Sky have dominated only 3 previous tours and not four. Froome may well be the best GT rider in the world over the last few years but if he wins this year it will only be his second GT victory and he's only two years younger than Contador, so not much time to achieve the same amount of success in GT's as Contador. When talking about Contador it's the whole package that's being discussed, as he's the best GT rider of his generation in terms of results.
Also I'll correct you here.
Froome= FC Barcelona
Conatdor= Real Madrid
I agree with you that froome hasn't had the same level of success has contador but he did also start his cyclist career later on and he wasn't supposed to be a big GC contender when you look at him when he was younger while contador already showed promising ability in climbing during his early ages |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 18-07-2015 20:26
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is the best GT rider of his generation on a year by year basis, but even greats have bad tours. Not in the Tour de France since 2009. Froome and Sky has been dominant in the last 4 years in the Tour de France, except the last year because crash.
Maybe in the Giro and the Vuelta, where the opponent not has the same class or show up unprepared after an unlucky season. Just as Europe league in football.
Froome = FC Barcelona
Contador = Sevilla FC
Well Contador won the Tour in 2010 but had it taken off him and didn't compete in 2012. Sky have dominated only 3 previous tours and not four. Froome may well be the best GT rider in the world over the last few years but if he wins this year it will only be his second GT victory and he's only two years younger than Contador, so not much time to achieve the same amount of success in GT's as Contador. When talking about Contador it's the whole package that's being discussed, as he's the best GT rider of his generation in terms of results.
Also I'll correct you here.
Froome= FC Barcelona
Conatdor= Real Madrid
I agree with you that froome hasn't had the same level of success has contador but he did also start his cyclist career later on and he wasn't supposed to be a big GC contender when you look at him when he was younger while contador already showed promising ability in climbing during his early ages
Froome is just a late developer and the best all-round GT rider and we're not arguing against that, we're just arguing that Contador is an all-time great and consistently the best of his generation and his Giro and Vuelta successes should be treated as great victories and not like some secondary successes.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 18-07-2015 20:27
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 18-07-2015 20:26
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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bob7 wrote:
Arberg27 wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Contador is the best GT rider of his generation on a year by year basis, but even greats have bad tours. Not in the Tour de France since 2009. Froome and Sky has been dominant in the last 4 years in the Tour de France, except the last year because crash.
Maybe in the Giro and the Vuelta, where the opponent not has the same class or show up unprepared after an unlucky season. Just as Europe league in football.
Froome = FC Barcelona
Contador = Sevilla FC
Aarberg, please, calm down
Sevilla is shit comparing to Barcelona. Froome only riding Tour, because Vuelta and Giro are difficult to win and he'll never win in Spain and Giro. That's why I rate Nibali over Froome (despite I hate Nibali). Imo winnig all 3 GT's are more significant than dominating Tour de France.
You're in the wrong field if you think giro and vuelta is harder to win because the giro is mostly mountainous the best riders are generally not there and the Tour de France is the main center of attraction it's where you can see who is the strongest and I'm not even talking about the vuelta cuz it lacks prestige it's mostly for riders that didn't got a good season or got injured to show what they can do the best generally won't go there when they got successful Tour de France unless they want to make tour-vuelta double. |
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 16:22
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Junior Rider
Posts: 39
Joined: 27-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Greipel 82 Sprint !! , he is bossing the Sprints this year, in this form only cav has a chance to beat him in paris |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 17:10
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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alex199412 wrote:
Greipel 82 Sprint !! , he is bossing the Sprints this year, in this form only cav has a chance to beat him in paris
I'd still say he was 81 but if he were to beat Cav on the final stage then 82 would be good. The simple reason he's won three stages now is because he's in great form and the stages haven't been pure sprinter stages either. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 17:10
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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alex199412 wrote:
Greipel 82 Sprint !! , he is bossing the Sprints this year, in this form only cav has a chance to beat him in paris
I'd still say he was 81 but if he were to beat Cav on the final stage then 82 would be good. The simple reason he's won three stages now is because he's in great form and the stages haven't been pure sprinter stages either, like lots of small climbs and wind. |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 19-07-2015 17:32
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
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In my opinion he deserves 82. He beats to Cavendish, Degenkolb, Kristoff,...
I think:
Kittel 83
Cavendish 82
Greipel 82
Kristoff 81
Bouhanni 80
Degenkolb 80
Demare 79
Sagan 79
etc |
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| alex199412 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 17:43
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Junior Rider
Posts: 39
Joined: 27-06-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
alex199412 wrote:
Greipel 82 Sprint !! , he is bossing the Sprints this year, in this form only cav has a chance to beat him in paris
I'd still say he was 81 but if he were to beat Cav on the final stage then 82 would be good. The simple reason he's won three stages now is because he's in great form and the stages haven't been pure sprinter stages either, like lots of small climbs and wind.
Sprinting stats are always determined most by the performances in grand tours and Greipel has won stages in Both of them. He won nearly every intermediate sprint and lost in the Sprint Royale only one stage to cav. Greipel needs also the advantage in SPR over Kristoff to match kristoffs support stats advantages |
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 19-07-2015 18:03
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion he deserves 82. He beats to Cavendish, Degenkolb, Kristoff,...
I think:
Kittel 83
Cavendish 82
Greipel 82
Kristoff 81
Bouhanni 80
Degenkolb 80
Demare 79
Sagan 79
etc
I dunno about that. For me Kristoff is a slightly worse sprinter than last year. I would definitely give him 80 but would give him +1 in stamina to make him more of a classics rider. Sagan is better than last year and I would give him 80. I mean this man was the only one who came close to Greipel regularly when he was still fresh. And I can't agree on 82 Cavendish. He hasn't shown anything for the last two seasons(even though he has more stage wins than 2agan  ) but I tend to give him 81 instead. In reality he'd probably be 81.5 but PCM doesn't give us that option. This is my humble opinion so don't kill me if you disagree |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-07-2015 18:17
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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To be fair I think all of you (Dark, Alex and Aizak) are raising some good points about the sprinters but I would keep Cavendish at 82 because he is the best natural sprinter here. Greipel 81/82 depending on final stage and if he has a showdown with Cav as anything can happen.
Degenkolb and Kristoff are pure classics sprinters (big endurance) at 80 and 81 which is good for them, but I'd keep Kristoff at 81 because Degenkolb has a superior acc stat.
Sagan is the only one that is really incorrect, most Db's have him on 78 which is crazy, he should be at lowest 79 and at best 80, personally I'd say 80 which what he was usually in the 2012 and 2013 dbs.
It's a shame about Bouhanni because we could've seen how good he really was against a top rank field. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 19-07-2015 18:24
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Something to keep in mind is that Greipel has much lower ACC than Cavendish. Greipel on 82 therefore wouldn't necessarily make him stronger than Cavendish.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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