Angus Osborne wrote:
I don't know how anyone can look at Sky and say that they are without a doubt doping, and I understand why it can't be said that they are without a doubt clean.
I think that they think they are not cheating. I also think that they are doing everything they can to give their riders an advantage over their rivals, and that could easily slip over the line that divides "doping" and "not doping", wherever that line is drawn.
When you get a shot before every day of racing you know you are doping.
We know how sports work that is how we know they are doing drugs.
You dont suddenly become as good as proven drug users without doing drugs. Why people want to cover their eyes is beyond me. I love watching the sport but hate the fact people love trying to prove their bullshit hero isnt doping when its obvious they are.
Yes, but there's blood transfusions doping and then the concoctions that all riders have doping (the ones that Taylor Phinney hated https://www.velona...sport.aspx )
we dont know how far (if at all) Sky have crossed the line. i very much doubt that if Sky are doping, they are doing it to the same extent that US Postal and the other eras doped because of the changed rules. they cant do it to the same extent anymore.
Angus Osborne wrote:
I don't know how anyone can look at Sky and say that they are without a doubt doping, and I understand why it can't be said that they are without a doubt clean.
I think that they think they are not cheating. I also think that they are doing everything they can to give their riders an advantage over their rivals, and that could easily slip over the line that divides "doping" and "not doping", wherever that line is drawn.
When you get a shot before every day of racing you know you are doping.
We know how sports work that is how we know they are doing drugs.
You dont suddenly become as good as proven drug users without doing drugs. Why people want to cover their eyes is beyond me. I love watching the sport but hate the fact people love trying to prove their bullshit hero isnt doping when its obvious they are.
Yes, but there's blood transfusions doping and then the concoctions that all riders have doping (the ones that Taylor Phinney hated https://www.velona...sport.aspx )
we dont know how far (if at all) Sky have crossed the line. i very much doubt that if Sky are doping, they are doing it to the same extent that US Postal and the other eras doped because of the changed rules. they cant do it to the same extent anymore.
Of course not but what is your point? They take the line as far as they can just like the dopers of previous did. Just because you use a better product doesnt change anything.
Angus Osborne wrote:
I don't know how anyone can look at Sky and say that they are without a doubt doping, and I understand why it can't be said that they are without a doubt clean.
I think that they think they are not cheating. I also think that they are doing everything they can to give their riders an advantage over their rivals, and that could easily slip over the line that divides "doping" and "not doping", wherever that line is drawn.
When you get a shot before every day of racing you know you are doping.
We know how sports work that is how we know they are doing drugs.
You dont suddenly become as good as proven drug users without doing drugs. Why people want to cover their eyes is beyond me. I love watching the sport but hate the fact people love trying to prove their bullshit hero isnt doping when its obvious they are.
Yes, but there's blood transfusions doping and then the concoctions that all riders have doping (the ones that Taylor Phinney hated https://www.velona...sport.aspx )
we dont know how far (if at all) Sky have crossed the line. i very much doubt that if Sky are doping, they are doing it to the same extent that US Postal and the other eras doped because of the changed rules. they cant do it to the same extent anymore.
Of course not but what is your point? They take the line as far as they can just like the dopers of previous did. Just because you use a better product doesnt change anything.
I'm saying the line isn't clear cut. maybe they are doing illegal stuff. maybe they are just more efficient at training and legal suppliments than their competitors.
Just because they are as good as proven drug users doesnt mean they are doping either (though it isn't helping their argument).
you say they take the line as far as they can. how do we know how far they have gone? unless there's proof, we can't be 100% sure they are doping. Granted, in all likelihood they are, but i'm not willing to tarnish a rider's achievements without proof. at least wait till there's more than circumstancial evidence to say they are as doped as Armstrong et al
Don't you guys have nothing better to do than talking about this. 2 years ago, I was sure that Froome was doped. This Giro, I was sure that Aru was doped. But then you realize: you loose the fun in watching cycling, so I've decided to stick my head in the sand, and have started enjoying cycling again. Just try to do this, it'll make your life better!!! (just as airco in cars, wine, Strava and the latest Muse-cd).
dienblad wrote:
Don't you guys have nothing better to do than talking about this. 2 years ago, I was sure that Froome was doped. This Giro, I was sure that Aru was doped. But then you realize: you loose the fun in watching cycling, so I've decided to stick my head in the sand, and have started enjoying cycling again. Just try to do this, it'll make your life better!!! (just as airco in cars, wine, Strava and the latest Muse-cd).
Why not do both? complain the sport is doped, then forget all that, and love a contador attack followed by Aru and Landa going beserk?
i just find it irritating that the hate against Froome seems to be so much more than against the other prominent riders.
dienblad wrote:
Don't you guys have nothing better to do than talking about this. 2 years ago, I was sure that Froome was doped. This Giro, I was sure that Aru was doped. But then you realize: you loose the fun in watching cycling, so I've decided to stick my head in the sand, and have started enjoying cycling again. Just try to do this, it'll make your life better!!! (just as airco in cars, wine, Strava and the latest Muse-cd).
Why not do both? complain the sport is doped, then forget all that, and love a contador attack followed by Aru and Landa going beserk?
i just find it irritating that the hate against Froome seems to be so much more than against the other prominent riders.
Agree. At Dutch television, Sky was compared with FC Barcelona. But almost everybody loves it when Barcelona plays great dominating football, but when Sky (or Astana, or Torku, or Trek, or Etixx....) dominates a race, people are talking about doping. So again: grow up
dienblad wrote:
Don't you guys have nothing better to do than talking about this. 2 years ago, I was sure that Froome was doped. This Giro, I was sure that Aru was doped. But then you realize: you loose the fun in watching cycling, so I've decided to stick my head in the sand, and have started enjoying cycling again. Just try to do this, it'll make your life better!!! (just as airco in cars, wine, Strava and the latest Muse-cd).
The fact I love cycling is why I talk about doping, I don't see why greedy selfish acts of needing to cheat to make a living that some cyclists do by doping doesn't change that I enjoy watching the beauty of cycling. I think by not being quiet on doping but also enjoying cycling is being grown up, ignoring it isn't grown up.
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I'm saying the line isn't clear cut. maybe they are doing illegal stuff. maybe they are just more efficient at training and legal suppliments than their competitors.
Just because they are as good as proven drug users doesnt mean they are doping either (though it isn't helping their argument).
you say they take the line as far as they can. how do we know how far they have gone? unless there's proof, we can't be 100% sure they are doping. Granted, in all likelihood they are, but i'm not willing to tarnish a rider's achievements without proof. at least wait till there's more than circumstancial evidence to say they are as doped as Armstrong et al
Are you serious? i dont even know how to respond to the double talk crazy convoluted way you came to that conclusion.
I mean lets be serious here, the sport has never been clean. That I dont have a problem with. I have a problem with the fucking bullshit from people like Froome, Wiggins, Thomas, Brailsford. Sure plenty of riders have doped but nobody has thrown it in our face like the current SKY idiots since Armstrong.
I however actually liked watching the doped Lance race, because he made the race fucking exciting. As a fan that is the most important, with a clean peloton a close second.
SKY make the race boring as shit, are doped to the gills, and then try to tell me how they are smarter than me.
The last thing an athlete should do is insult his fans.
I could go on and on but the fact is people believe way to much bullshit and I can never change that.
People will complain about the USP train but in the end the stages were always more exciting than what we see today. Maybe that is because all the other riders were doped, I dunno. (Well I do know they were doped, just not if that correlates to a more exciting stage.)
Agree. At Dutch television, Sky was compared with FC Barcelona. But almost everybody loves it when Barcelona plays great dominating football, but when Sky (or Astana, or Torku, or Trek, or Etixx....) dominates a race, people are talking about doping. So again: grow up
Well because FC Barcelona have lots of money like SKY they dont spend every second on social media telling people how much smarter they are then them.
That is the problem with SKY. They are a bunch of lying losers who think they know more than everyone else in the world.
Riis123 wrote:
I may be drunk, but just fuck Geraint Thomas. I call shenanigans, this guy cant be fckn real.
Yeah I could understand how he was up there on the first mountain stage, and the 2nd day they just didn't go that hard so okay he was still in the big kids group but yesterday was laughable, actually that whole main group was hilarious to go that fast in those conditions. I did kind of expect this Tour to be ridiculous after watching how fast the Giro was but every once and a while you do have to do have to do a double take when you see Thomas pulling Quintana back with relative ease.
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Angus Osborne wrote:
I don't know how anyone can look at Sky and say that they are without a doubt doping, and I understand why it can't be said that they are without a doubt clean.
I think that they think they are not cheating. I also think that they are doing everything they can to give their riders an advantage over their rivals, and that could easily slip over the line that divides "doping" and "not doping", wherever that line is drawn.
The line is very clearly drawn so anyone who slips over the line is doing it on purpose, with all the money behind them they shouldn't make any mistakes. The way I look at it is that no the evidence is not clear cut but in most cases has it ever been clear cut? Look at race speeds, climbing times, power outputs, all season peaks. All of this has been creeping up again in the last few seasons so unless the peloton has found some out of this world new nutrition programs that they haven't been sharing then the peloton have perfected things like micro-dosing. The new clean generation of cycling unfortunately a myth
Race speeds, climbing times, power outputs... Is it really not possible that sports evolve. (i.e. Swimming/Athletics, always going on with breaking records) The material evolves, the training methods evolve, and so on. In the end it is possible to see that and getting up with the old doped times. I am not saying it really is, because I believe in all kind of sports there is doping, but atleast we could live in that dreamworld and just enjoy it.
Swimming evolved because of a suit that was banned. Some records were reset. People still break them but not like anything we saw for a few years. Thanks for the bullshit example though.
What other athletics have records continued to be broken in? Sure some are but the ones in actually tested sports dont seem to be broken as fast as ones with drug problems.
That is actually my point they invented something to go faster. That it is banned in the end doesn't matter.
That is actually my point they invented something to go faster. That it is banned in the end doesn't matter.
They invented a hydrophobic skin suit. How does that have anything to do with going up a hill faster?
If your point is that you think being ahead of the rules means you are not cheating then that is your opinion and you are allowed. But there is a difference between inventing something never seen before and then having everyone agree it shouldnt be allowed to hiding everything you are doing so nobody else can match you.
That is the big difference and why using the swimming case as an example is just dishonest.
Movistar wrote:
I dont think you understand how any of this works. The anti-doping agencies have to abide by the agreed upon protocol they cant just go we know you are doping you are banned. No matter if they know or not, it just doesnt work that way.
Well at least some who still respect "Innocent until proven guilty".
So you want the doping authority to do things they cant do and they when they dont do them you yell about innocent until proven guilty?
You can be as biased as you want and cheer for you whoever you want but dont act like you are putting people in their place about doping.
I don't want the doping authorities to use this, because it's pseudoscientific bollocks. I just asked if it's so obvious by the data that Froome is using doping, then why don't the anti-doping agencies use it. By which I meant that this W/kg jugglary isn't suited to answer those questions, sice the anti-doping agencies obviously know their job better than me, you or arm chair scientists.
Strydz wrote:
On the first bolded part, yes the other contenders are certainly doping.
Ok then, if all are doping, then why the Sky dope thread? Isn't it time for an Astana dope thread, a Movistar dope thread, a BMC dope thread, a Tinkoff-Saxo dope thread...?
I don't really care what people's personal opinions are, that doesn't matter. I personally think that 90%, if not more, of the Tour peloton takes doping, just in lesser volumes as in the 1990s-2000s. Someone else may think doping is close to being extinct, that's one's good right.
What I can't stand are the constant attacks and accusations on certain riders/teams (it are always the same, this whole forum is obsessed with Team Sky, probably Astana as well during the Giro). We can't know for sure if Sky dopes their riders (if we could, they would be thrown out of the race). I think it's rather childish, it's almost entirely because people don't like Sky (which I can understand, I don't like them either, I'd rather have Nibali or Quintana win).
Edited by fosforgasXIII on 17-07-2015 23:17
Well, none of the other teams pretend to be clean and don't shove their 'revolutionary training method' bullshit down your throat at every given opportunity. Plus, if all teams are doping as you say, Sky make it a joke as it is so blatantly obvious with them.
I hope Sky is clean, but watching them chat and laugh while those around them are suffering is concerning. I also wonder if Nibali's poor Tour performance is a function of the scrutiny Astana is under. Cycling's largest problem is that we even think about those things, whether true or not.
fosforgasXIII wrote:
Ok then, if all are doping, then why the Sky dope thread? Isn't it time for an Astana dope thread, a Movistar dope thread, a BMC dope thread, a Tinkoff-Saxo dope thread...?
I don't really care what people's personal opinions are, that doesn't matter. I personally think that 90%, if not more, of the Tour peloton takes doping, just in lesser volumes as in the 1990s-2000s. Someone else may think doping is close to being extinct, that's one's good right.
What I can't stand are the constant attacks and accusations on certain riders/teams (it are always the same, this whole forum is obsessed with Team Sky, probably Astana as well during the Giro). We can't know for sure if Sky dopes their riders (if we could, they would be thrown out of the race). I think it's rather childish, it's almost entirely because people don't like Sky (which I can understand, I don't like them either, I'd rather have Nibali or Quintana win).
There actually is a Astana doping thread that was started during the Giro but it obviously wasn't as popular as this one. People love a villain and at the moment that's Sky, it doesn't help when the star rider came out of nowhere to become one on the strongest GT riders in the peloton with a miracle story that doesn't stack up, much like the miracle story from a certain American, these thing contribute to the dislike by many of Sky. They are an uninspiring team to watch on the road as fans like excitement (I actually don't mind the Sky train as I enjoy the tactical side of the sport) They also don't do themselves any favours with things like a zero tolerance policy yet have Knaven on staff, the fact that they are supposedly so in depth with knowing every little detail yet hired Lienders and so on.
I don't care if Froome wins or say Contador or Nibali because if they are doping then they are all the same, they might not be as charged up as the riders from the 90's-2000's but it doesn't make them any better than the riders from that era.
Also personal opinions do matter so if you want to avoid that type of posting then an Internet forum might not be the best place for you The thing to remember about PCMDaily is the age of the posters varies from quite young to old which also can lead to quite reactionary posting with things happen such as Sky dominance.
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