@Marble
You are right on Gatto. Gatto kept it on past results(last year's results do weigh a bit in our judgement, heavily depending on the situation though), but those past results are less convicing than I remember, a small downgrade would be just here.
On Oliviera/Lutsenko, I'm looking at the option of giving Lutsenko a small boost.
I do not really consider changing the COB stats of the strong domestiques(e.g Wynants, Eisel), since those are really important for the results of the leader, and that should be attempted to be recreated in PCM. After all strong domestiques does also decrease the chance of a (random) breakaway making it in Roubaix which is also a factor to consider.
Overall, the backup stats(mainly STA in this case) of the domestiques are generally a bit worse. I could try to make the differences in the backup stats a bit more dramatic. Lowering STA makes sure that a rider's qualities decrease(compared to the top riders) in the later parts which I suppose would be fair.
The differences are small in real life, especially in 2015, but I really don't want to put them much closer.
Believe me, the gameplay would not be too good if that happens.
Plus what should be considered is that indeed, some of the current 77-78 guys had top results, but that was often only once, while the ones currently on 79-81 were much more constant in that.
Believe me, if a rider has 77/78COB(and especially with stats such as FTR high), he can definitely get a top result in-game, but only occasionally(think daily form, for instance) and not structured. This is in my opinion a good thing.
Before I (would) release a stat update, I would test a few Roubaix's and RvV's to make sure it's all right.
So the question then comes. Do you set up all the other stats first that would give realistic results in normal races and then try to find the cobble stats, or do you try to find a balance that would maybe sacrifice a bit of realism on both sides. I'd like to hear a convincing argument cause I'm honestly not sure at all.
I don't want stats to solely be accurate on RvV and Roubaix.
Stybar is a good puncher, he was able to win Strade Bianche earlier this year, for example.
Now I don't want to lower his HI only because his RvV result was worse than Roubaix, definitely.
Also, lets not forgot Stybar was not weak at all in RvV and was good on the hills. It was mainly for tactical purposes that he didn't have chances to achieve better than 9th, so that is not sometihng I'd want to take the hill stat down for anyway.
Same goes for Kristoff, I rather have him accurate in the 100 other World Tour stages and a small inaccuracy in his Rvv/Roubaix preference, than have him on 77HI for the cobbled classics and having him even more OP than he already is in the rest. With his current stats, Kristoff will do just fine in both of the classics.
@Squire
At first, thanks for the compliments.
Yes, a more complete palmares section would be very very welcome.
Just make sure to take a look at the remarks I had on your last one, honestly I am not sure what exactly it was, but there was something I believe
Yes, the old auto-NC problem. I am familiar with it and I thought I adjusted it once, but thinking about it, it probably went wrong when the DB got the 2015 dates, since obviously the NC were also adjusted and I forgot to check the auto-NC problem. I will change that for the next release.
Also, the Tour of Turkey only has a handful of teams showing up in career mode
Ugh, this is indeed a very annoying issue. Databases have had a problem with this often, and it's always the same races. I could try to change some of the teams focus to attempt to get it right, it's often Asian(I believe Turkey is classified Asian) races that have this problem, because of a lack of Asian teams in the DB. Now that lack is not something I am looking to change, because Asia is simply not our focus, and Asian teams can only be included if they regulary race in Europe(or USA).
A small point of irritation which I presume you won't fix, and which very few DB makers have the capacity to do something about: The jerseys for new sponsors are not only just converted from low-res old jerseys, and therefore low quality, but generally they're all absolutely crap regardless (I haven't had any ingame yet though, but I've looked through some of the folders). I just have to live with it, I guess, or just edit back the name and jersey of the old team whenever a major team gets a new sponsor.
Well, this is a difficult dilemma yes.
Cleaning up the ''ugly'' sponsors(and to be honest, I find it hard to define when something is ugly) would have consequences.
People who download the DB will have less choice in terms of sponsors, and every region should have sufficient sponsors to choose from, in my opinion. People can always change an ugly sponsor back to a ''proper'' one, but if someone is looking for a sponsor from a country that my DB just doesn't offer, they will be disappointed too.
I am not sure what to decide on this yet.
About your TdF:
I think you might just be unlucky on how the transfers went. Sprinters might've gone to teams without too many quality on the flat, having trouble supporting them.
Or there are not enough teams with a strong sprinter in the TdF, maybe. And indeed, sprinters being in a GC-focussed team won't help either.
Another thing is that the AI is very directed against the player, in my opinion. Did you put people in the breakaway? Because I would advice to do so, generally the AI does chase more when they have to chase a player. If you have a strong sprinter(I have no idea if that's the case) and you don't chase enough or don't make a train, the AI could be weird indeed.
This is however not a problem if your team is crap(as showed by games as the PCMdaily Management Game, which goes fine normally).
I don't think you can do much about it, beside chasing and/or putting riders in the break.
@MartijnVDD
Yes, Alak and I expected people to moan about that.
I could put a wall of text here(as if the post isn't long enough yet ) but in the end, this one stat is mainly about personal preference. I have also heard people(including some other statmaker) who wanted Boonen lower than this. It comes down to personal preference more than objective results/acts.
I do not think that Boonen would've dominated the bunch if he wasn't injured, but there's no way to actually know.
@Everyone
What would your opinion be on switching the COB stats of Vanmarcke(to 81) and Degenkolb(to 80). Both's backup stats would be altered as well of course, so that Vanmarcke won't be too overpowered, nor Degenkolb would be underpowered.
(Sry for the wall of text, it's only 1230 words) Edited by Jesleyh on 13-04-2015 13:57
I haven't read Jesley's 10,000 word essay yet but will. I posted this in the other thread and it might prove useful here, especially since I use Jesley's 1.65 DB.
The Rider Cobble Averages
I had a spare 20 minutes and thought it would be fun and helpful to add up all the cobble stat suggestions here to find the average score for each main rider (I've rounded up or down to the nearest whole number) I used y those that have put them on the last couple of pages Paul, Jesley, Ollfardh, Omloop, Kentaurus, Morganho, Naxela, Maddox and Myself and these are what came out:
Interestingly both Van Avermaet and Stybar had exactly the same average score down to the point. The biggest debate seems to be Degenkolb as a number of people equally voted him between 79 and 81 but more nearer 81 which gave him 80.
The whole thing is like the Eurovision Song Contest and Cancellara won it yet again without even singing his song.
Hopefully these stats will tighten the debate as we now have the averages.
Jesleyh wrote: @Everyone
What would your opinion be on switching the COB stats of Vanmarcke(to 81) and Degenkolb(to 80). Both's backup stats would be altered as well of course, so that Vanmarcke won't be too overpowered, nor Degenkolb would be underpowered.
Well the averages I did demonstrate that most people see Vanmarcke as 81 and Degenkolb as 80, so great idea.
I think the points of contention and the debate outside the averages I did, should be:
1) What should Thomas really be, is he not better than 79? He ran out of legs at RVV and had bad luck at Roubaix, but before this he was the strongest rider, even though members on here were saying that he did his attacks on the paved roads BUT he still needs the right cobble stat to stay with the other leaders on the cobbles which he did anyway. Especially since the cobble stat features more highly than the flat stat in these races. I've also boosted him to 75 hill as well.
2) Degenkolb and Kristoff are similar riders and what I refer to as 'classics sprinters' and a breakdown of their differences is quite minor, so it's hard to work out exactly what both should be on their backup stats. I think both though on cobble are good a 80.
3) Sagan looks a shadow of his former self and I think the 79 cobble is what most people see him at.
4)Stannard is a difficult one and he looks like the type of rider that could win Roubaix so his cobble stat should be good but as he only wins at Omloop, that demonstrates that his stamina stat for the harder cobble races should be his weakness.
Finally I think it's a good idea not to change the stats of domestiques like Eisel, because all these guys should be between only 75 to 77 at best and all they effectively do is just ride to protect their leader's interest and not to race.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 13-04-2015 14:40
Jesleyh wrote:
Yes, a more complete palmares section would be very very welcome.
Just make sure to take a look at the remarks I had on your last one, honestly I am not sure what exactly it was, but there was something I believe
I don't think you remarked anything. It was just about the retired riders I deleted. I will now stick to editing only the relevant palmares sections and just tell you about other things. Could you send me a cdb with the fully updated dyn_cyclist and dyn_team (that is, if you intend to delete/add riders/teams)?
Jesleyh wrote:
Tour of Turkey stuff
Can't you just change it to European? The only Asian team in the race last year is not in the DB (Torku).
Jesleyh wrote:
Ugly jersey for new sponsors stuff
I don't expect you to do anything about it, I was more thinking loudly about any potential huge DBs that would be made.
But something I do want to request for the updated DB is that you try to collect as many 2015 routes as possible (you were probably planning to do that anyway).
And also be aware of the Richmond issue I highlighted earlier in the thread.
Jesleyh wrote:
About your TdF:
I think you might just be unlucky on how the transfers went. Sprinters might've gone to teams without too many quality on the flat, having trouble supporting them.
Or there are not enough teams with a strong sprinter in the TdF, maybe. And indeed, sprinters being in a GC-focussed team won't help either.
Another thing is that the AI is very directed against the player, in my opinion. Did you put people in the breakaway? Because I would advice to do so, generally the AI does chase more when they have to chase a player. If you have a strong sprinter(I have no idea if that's the case) and you don't chase enough or don't make a train, the AI could be weird indeed.
This is however not a problem if your team is crap(as showed by games as the PCMdaily Management Game, which goes fine normally).
I don't think you can do much about it, beside chasing and/or putting riders in the break.
All the great sprinters were in the race, but apart from Giant-Alpecin, they were all teammates of a GC guy. I see what you mean about the AI being anti-player, but I did actually have a guy in a couple of the breaks that were almost caught but let go again.
Anyway, what I really wanted to ask was whether it has anything to do with the stage finish as set in the stage file, as I noticed this variant is a bit sloppy in other areas too (long, straight roads etc). If that's the case, I can look forward to not having this issue next season.
And a general remark: Shouldn't the stat discussion go in the stat discussion thread?
Features:
- Stat updates up to 15/4/2014.
(This includes Roubaix, but also all the other races that have taken place since the last release and updates of older stats)
- Updated potentials
- Addition of a few new riders
- Minor bugs fixed(e.g. British NC bug)
- Other minor .cdb stuff
Degenkolb deserves 74HI, for instance look at Dubai.
Unsure about Kristoff, but his backup stats were made stronger so he could take a small hill nerf.
He would be too overpowered in hilly sprints outside of RvV otherwise imo.
I kept Kristoff 74 hill and Degenkolb 73 hill, simply because Kristoff goes better at Flanders. But as Jesley says it probably doesn't make too much difference, as I've had Degenkolb win a number of uphill sprints without problems.
Hey Jesley can you print some stat screens to show the changes you made since the V1.75db? As I can see how close my stats are to yours.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 16-04-2015 13:16
Those are the top cobbled stats.
I have obviously edited much more than that, but I can't screen every rider in the DB
I think the only difference is that Degenkolb and Thomas are 1 lower than in the final stats you gathered. But both have very strong backup stats.
Edited by Jesleyh on 16-04-2015 20:26
Those are the top cobbled stats.
I have obviously edited much more than that, but I can't screen every rider in the DB
I think the only difference is that Degenkolb and Thomas are 1 lower than in the final stats you gathered. But both have very strong backup stats.
Thanks for the stat sheet in fact the only real changes between yours and mine came in some of the stamina stats. But I was surprised that you put a 2 point difference in stamina between Kristoff and Degenkolb though.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 16-04-2015 21:38
Those are the top cobbled stats.
I have obviously edited much more than that, but I can't screen every rider in the DB
I think the only difference is that Degenkolb and Thomas are 1 lower than in the final stats you gathered. But both have very strong backup stats.
Thanks for the stat sheet in fact the only real changes between yours and mine came in some of the stamina stats. But I was surprised that you put a 2 point difference in stamina between Kristoff and Degenkolb though.
also I just wanted to say, that I simply love Jesleys, danny and Alaks db. Its the best db out here atm. The stats are well done and it gets frequent updates. If you want realism, go with this db!
) but in the end, this one stat is mainly about personal preference. I have also heard people(including some other statmaker) who wanted Boonen lower than this. It comes down to personal preference more than objective results/acts.
