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teamdoubledragon
King_Ric wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
I am very worried about the general opinion of giving Vingegaard a higher No than Pogacar. We are basing that on one pretty extreme stage after before thinking Pogacar is THE dominant rider in today's era. Also don't forget that Jumbo wore him out as a team. Yes, the tour is the biggest race. But it's not the only race. Over the last 2 years we've seen that Pogacar is the best climber in the world, eventhough Vingegaard this tour is up to his level.


Agreed. It was a one off. At max they should be equal in CLI, Vinge with slightly higher STA and Pogacar better in everything else.


It took me a minute to jump back into this, but this is mostly where I was at before the Pyrenees, and unless something drastic happens tomorrow, I think this ultimately is the most “logical” outcome — equal on MTN, slight STA advantage JV, rest of back up stats favor Pog.

I feel like the think that makes this hardest to translate to PCM is two-fold. First, stronger teams rarely utilize their numerical/power advantage correctly. Again, TJV put forth a PERFECT game plan on stage 12. And Pog took the bait 100%. We don’t have the AI to replicate that. Pog has already proven that individually he is better than any one rider, but we’ve seen now that he can brazen at times, enough to do himself in.

Secondly, and I haven’t REALLY seen this addressed, the CO advantage that Pog has on pretty much every other GC rider. While in reality WVA saved JV, and TJV’s, hide by turning himself inside out to single handedly mitigate that attempt from Pog on stage 5, in game the AI creates some many breaks that’s Pog’s 77 (iirc) CO always leaves him minutes ahead of the other main GC guys.

I don’t know if there is a harmonious balance there or not. It’s not like MOST of the GC did much but ride WVA’s engine, but they did stay upright (mostly). Still, there is no denying that Pog deserves his CO rating. Boosting the other GC guys doesn’t seem fair based on their merits, but pave containing GC stages are always a tough balance in PCM.

Finally, as a side note, it kind of sucks that Cyanide have relegated ACC to that of JUST sprints. I feel like that seriously dampens the “style” possibilities of GT riders. Some guys are engines, like GT, they aren’t ever going to be explosive, but they are also damn hard to fully drop/crack. Then you have the jackrabbits who can pop off and be 50m ahead of you in a few seconds, forcing you to either tempo ride to catch up, or risk blowing yourself up. Not to mention guys that in between those extremes.

With JUST MTN accounting for speed, it feels very…one dimensional. The AI is better this year than just about any other version over the last, what, 7-10? But that is an unfortunate step backward. Alas, to Hautacam. That climb seems to always produce great Tour moments — fingers crossed for one more!
 
Arberg
No Vingegaard is the best climber in the world.
 
Croatia14
Arberg wrote:
No Vingegaard is the best climber in the world.

Incredible how one can change his view on the world of cycling this drastically almost every other day.
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Arberg
Van Aert 76-77 mountain.
 
b13v3r
Pierre Latour and Enric Mas has 71 and 72 downhill. Latour is more or less the worst downhill specialist in peleton.
And Mas (felt already 3 times this year downhill)... If you watch today stage... Latour should be a 61 or so. mas not better then 65 (its just fear at this moment i guess).

Pidcock: 79 ==> should be 81 - 82 downhill
 
Tafiolmo
b13v3r wrote:
Pierre Latour and Enric Mas has 71 and 72 downhill. Latour is more or less the worst downhill specialist in peleton.
And Mas (felt already 3 times this year downhill)... If you watch today stage... Latour should be a 61 or so. mas not better then 65 (its just fear at this moment i guess).

Pidcock: 79 ==> should be 81 - 82 downhill


Thanks for the post and this is the kind of info that we are always looking for, as it's sometimes easy to forget the DH stat with some riders
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b13v3r
also ackermann still at 81 for sprint... should be 80 max.
as a belgian, its hard to say, but ganna should be 83 time trail. Rohan Dennis should be reviewed. hes not worth 82 anymore.

olav kooij is very promissing but 80 sprint and acceleration is overpowering him at this moment. Both 79 should states his current skills better.

Ciccone climbing (at 79) ==> 77.

anyway, i like your database a lot. Thx for all your work
 
Tafiolmo
b13v3r wrote:
also ackermann still at 81 for sprint... should be 80 max.
as a belgian, its hard to say, but ganna should be 83 time trail. Rohan Dennis should be reviewed. hes not worth 82 anymore.

olav kooij is very promissing but 80 sprint and acceleration is overpowering him at this moment. Both 79 should states his current skills better.

Ciccone climbing (at 79) ==> 77.

anyway, i like your database a lot. Thx for all your work


Nearly every rider that you have mentioned here has been dropped over the last week or so
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b13v3r
Tafiolmo wrote:
b13v3r wrote:
also ackermann still at 81 for sprint... should be 80 max.
as a belgian, its hard to say, but ganna should be 83 time trail. Rohan Dennis should be reviewed. hes not worth 82 anymore.

olav kooij is very promissing but 80 sprint and acceleration is overpowering him at this moment. Both 79 should states his current skills better.

Ciccone climbing (at 79) ==> 77.

anyway, i like your database a lot. Thx for all your work


Nearly every rider that you have mentioned here has been dropped over the last week or so


What do you mean? These are the current skills these riders have in your database, which is the one i like to play with. When i start a new game, these are the stats i see. Am i missing something? (using steam workshop, database plus)
 
jhnnz
I don't think Jonas should have a higher STA than Pog. Pog has already shown that he can do a long sustained effort in the classics. IMO, it's better to put 83 CLI on Jonas, 82 on Pog but higher STA and RES.Recovery wise, they're pretty much the same. I would also say Jonas is a slightly better descender.

Pog stats with respect to Jonas:

Fla (+4)
Mnt (-1)
Hill (+3)
TT (+3)
Pro (+2)
Cob (+5)
Spr (+4)
Acc (+3)
DH (-1)
Bar (+5)
Sta (+3)
Res (+4)
Rec (=)

I might be favoring Pog too much in the other attributes but the point is, Pog is the better all around rider but Jonas is the better climber.
 
Arberg
Mountain stats

84: Vingegaard
83: Pogacar
82: Evenepoel
81: Roglic, Thomas, Barnal
80: Bardet, Quintana, Hindley, Carapaz
Edited by Arberg on 30-08-2022 16:53
 
henrikcomn
Arberg wrote:
Mountain stats

84: Vingegaard
83: Pogacar
82: Roglic
81: Thomas, Barnal
80: Bardet, Quintana, Hindley, Carapaz
79: Gaudu, Landa, Kuss, O'Connor
78: Mas, A.Yates, S.Yates, Nibali, Almeida


It is simply to one sided, to put it up like this.
You need to take into account hills, stamina and resistance too.
OTherwise you cant get a complete overview.

Like, I dont think Kuss should be that high i mountains, but have really high resistance, as he can set the pace for a long time, but (probably) cant win a grand tour.
 
Tafiolmo
Also no consideration has been taken for a rider having a bad day despite a proven track record, crashes and illness etc

Also somebody mentioned I think Pogacar's high cobble stat on a previous post and after doing a test of a Tour of Flanders both Pogacar 77 cobble and Alaphilippe 75 dominated the race. Therefore they have been reduced. It seemed their high hill was the most important thing and their average cobble adequate to win. We obviously can't reduce their hill stats so it has to be their cobble.

If anybody else has done a Flanders with Pogacar in let me know?
pcmdaily.com/files/exppack/PCM2020/dbteambanner2021.png
 
Arberg
Vingegaard
Fla 72
Mnt 84
Hill 77
TT 79
Pro 78
Cob 67
Spr 65
Acc 72
DH 70
Sta 80
Res 74
Rec 84

Pogacar
Flt 73
Mnt 83
Hill 80
TT 81
Pro 80
Cob 77
Spr 70
Acc 75
DH 75
Sta 79
Res 75
Rec 80
 
Consiglieri
Arberg wrote:
Vingegaard
Fla 72
Mnt 84
Hill 77
TT 79
Pro 78
Cob 67
Spr 65
Acc 72
DH 70
Sta 80
Res 74
Rec 84

Pogacar
Flt 73
Mnt 83
Hill 80
TT 81
Pro 80
Cob 77
Spr 70
Acc 75
DH 75
Sta 79
Res 75
Rec 80


How can you give a Guy that just crushed Ganna, Poga, and everyone else in TT only 79, and after he gave it all in all the mountain stages?
 
Arberg
Consiglieri wrote:
Arberg wrote:
Vingegaard
Fla 72
Mnt 84
Hill 77
TT 79
Pro 78
Cob 67
Spr 65
Acc 72
DH 70
Sta 80
Res 74
Rec 84

Pogacar
Flt 73
Mnt 83
Hill 80
TT 81
Pro 80
Cob 77
Spr 70
Acc 75
DH 75
Sta 79
Res 75
Rec 80


How can you give a Guy that just crushed Ganna, Poga, and everyone else in TT only 79, and after he gave it all in all the mountain stages?
84 REC Wink
 
teamdoubledragon
Tafiolmo wrote:
Also no consideration has been taken for a rider having a bad day despite a proven track record, crashes and illness etc

Also somebody mentioned I think Pogacar's high cobble stat on a previous post and after doing a test of a Tour of Flanders both Pogacar 77 cobble and Alaphilippe 75 dominated the race. Therefore they have been reduced. It seemed their high hill was the most important thing and their average cobble adequate to win. We obviously can't reduce their hill stats so it has to be their cobble.

If anybody else has done a Flanders with Pogacar in let me know?


I’m hitting Classics season now in my career, so I’ll see how things look when I arrive at De Ronde either tonight or tomorrow. I am surprised by Ala’s bossing, especially given that he only has two (iirc) real life appearances in the race, and one was a DNF. That being said, I’m not sure Tadej deserves the knock to his CO. He SHOULD have finished 2nd at this years race, if not for a complete tactical foible. And it was clear his ONLY real rival on that day was MvdP. Between Dwars and Ronde, I think we have enough sample evidence to conclude that if he WANTS to, Tadej is well worth his 77.

This is where imitation becomes so hard, much like prime Sagan. If he decides he wants to win a specific race, he’s going to do damn well in it. He is an incredible gifted and prodigious rider. It may be boring, or frustrating, to have to combat in the game, but I feel like that is simply the level he is at. Any race he enters, he has a legitimate chance of winning. His stats are OP, no doubt, but so are his real life performances and results.

If anything, as I’ve noted before, his biggest weakness is his confidence (or perhaps overconfidence) in his abilities. Sometimes he digs too deep, sometimes he does unnecessary things for minimal gains that hamper him long term. It will be interesting to see if this first “real” defeat changes how he approaches some of his stylistic strategies. I know this part doesn’t really pertain to his stats, but I think it needs to factored in.

Unless he just implodes at the the Vuelta, what we just witnessed was essentially the best rider in the world (with maybe the exception of WvA) lose to what may arguably be the most stacked modern team in cycling history. And it essentially boiled down to two singular events. It’s not like he was soundly beaten, it was just a situation where a rider was worn down over 20 stages. I do agree at this stage that Jonas deserves his 83 MTN to Tadej’s 82. I believe they should be equal on REC as well. You could make a case for the STA adjustment too. TT is probably 78 for both. Jonas will probably need a jump to at least upper 60s in CO, just to match the other “main” GC guys. I’m not sure if he deserves sniff of 70 yet, but it may be fair in balancing since Wout likely won’t be pacing for him in game, haha.

Beyond the obvious mammoth performances of those two, I still believe Roglic is the third best climber in the world, but obviously he always finds a way to be sideways in the Tour. Vuelta Roglic has always been next level however. Will be interesting to see if he really out of it this year with the back injuries.

Thomas has had a bit of a late career resurrection with this years performance and probably deserves high marks in REC and RES as well. Mas was thoroughly disappointing. One of the least impressive performances across the board. Bardet was…Bardet. I think he’s showing a late shift to better TT’ing, not AMAZING, but given the Parcours of stage 20, and his historical flat-ish TT results, this is likely his career best, which continues a trend since moving to DSM. Gaudu showed some growth in his recovery and ability to hang on in the longer climbs. I think both Frenchman have earned bumps to RES and REC (larger for Gaudu, smaller for Bardet, but bumps nonetheless). Nairo probably earned a slight HI bump, and probably a nudge up in RES as well. Not sure if his (relatively) poor final TT should have him knocked there or if that reflects more on his recovery. I feel like Vlasov is right about where he should be — he looked pretty out of sorts most every time I saw him, but still landed right about where everyone predicted.

Of the next level, I feel like Lutsenko is deserving of 78 MTN, he’s never going to win a GT, or probably even podium, but he’s a persistent top-10/15 rider who knows how to race. And he is a historically stronger performer in the later stages, so I feel like even a small REC buff could be earned. I think Jorgenson is worthy of a decent jump as well. Movistar were surprisingly toothless all Tour, but Matteo is showing some growth. BAR, REC and maybe even a slight MTN (~77?) seem fair based on his breakaway exploits. There’s no way his current stats would land his three top-5s in game. I feel like Yates could be worth a slight REC drop, he’s just given Pinot vibes at this stage of his career, but maybe that’s just me. Fast out of the gate, but always seems to crater in the third week.

I feel like Madouas might be in line for a slight MTN bump too, he performed well, especially in the final TT, despite being almost MIA in Copenhagen. Everything else feels pretty on point. I honestly barely remember seeing LLS, but a top-15 performance (and honestly what could’ve been a chance at a top 10 if not for imploding on the Granon) likely get him a boost to 76 or 77 MTN. Oh, and Meintjes is probably due a RES buff to 76 or 77 as well…and maybe even a lower TT than his 69, today’s showing was just flat BAD. I think that covers most of what I saw. My last thought comes from Martínez, who I feel like was pretty absent as well. Not sure if that means he deserves a knock to 78, or if it was just INEOS being unable to boss things, but he seemed unable to make an impact. On to Paris and one of the 2.5 bunch sprints this Tour! ????
 
King_Ric
I think JV shouldn't have higher CLI than Pogacar and i'm going to make my point.

The truth is JV never dropped Pogacar unless it was in a day of successive mountains and could never do in less tougher days. Considering the stats system in PCM, this implies JV has a STA advantage over Pogacar instead of a CLI one (that seems to be matched).
About the TT i think we can only say JV has a great REC with a pretty good TT, but this one still under the best specialists and Pogacar that beated him in every TT that wasn't and the end of a grandtour.

Let me know what do you think about my opinion.

EDIT:
To add up, please check how the new stats system work as the STA and RES stats were reworked and a lot of people are saying a lot things regarding these stats that would work in previous versions but are now senseless.
 
TheGameOfGame
I Think For me Vingegaard Roglic and Pogacar with both 82 Mountain is better.. But Vingegaard with better physical stats and Cobble stat of Roglic … And Van Aert 77-78 Mountain and Pidcock The same

Or Second possibility, Vingegaard and POGI 83, Roglic 82 MO… And for TT stats, POGI 81 Prologue 80 TT and Vingegaard 80 Prologue and 81 TT.. Van Aert for me is 83 TT and Prologue, 77 or 78 Mountain, 83 Flat, 80 or 81 Sprint and huge physical stats..

And Finally, I Keep Roglic 82 Mountain with Good TT Stats, but less physical stats than Jonas..
Edited by TheGameOfGame on 26-07-2022 05:21
 
Arberg
Vingegaard
Fla 72
Mnt 84
Hill 77
TT 79
Pro 78
Cob 67
Spr 65
Acc 72
DH 70
Sta 80
Res 74
Rec 84

Pogacar
Flt 73
Mnt 83
Hill 80
TT 81
Pro 80
Cob 77
Spr 70
Acc 75
DH 75
Sta 79
Res 75
Rec 80

Roglic
Flt 74
Mnt 82
Hill 81
TT 80
Pro 79
Cob 65
Spr 67
Acc 74
DH 67
Sta 79
Res 76
Rec 76

Thomas
Flt 75
Mnt 81
Hill 77
TT 79
Pro 78
Cob 70
Spr 65
Acc 63
DH 68
Sta 78
Res 73
Rec 78
 
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