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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
bassiii
I agree with everything you say Smile I just like to play with very up to date stats, but it's true one year can't reflect a longer period. For some riders though, eg Quintana, it's been since august 2016 we've seen the best of him, and in my opinion the stats should show that
 
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Champ_Armstrong
A guy like Quintana is a legend IMO. 81 (82 POT) in MO in ALL my savegames, always.
Froome 82 (83 pot) always.

As I see it, Yates is a solid 80 MO with a good live-form (pot 83) with a bit lower rec and res, good acc though.

I'll give Simon Yates higher stats when he deserves it be proving it IRL. That could take some years Smile

A good example is Sagan, do you downgrade his stats just because of some bad months? hell no. The guy is still great and we know it. I personally got pissed when Kwiato's hill stat got downgraded by 3 just because of 1 spring season!?!?
Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever.
 
Tafiolmo
Wow what a lot of posts!

Let’s put the Viviani thing into the correct perspective.

When you look at all his victories on PCS it looks super impressive and easily gives the impression that this is the best sprinter this season which he is in terms of victories, But the 6 wins at Giro and Vuelta, victories at Italian Nats, Adriatica and De Panne were against weak sprint fields and these add up to more than half of his victories. We are not saying that he hasn’t had a great season just that his victories have often been against lesser riders. I think in a season where riders like Bennett, Bouhanni and Ackermann can beat him shows that his stat level is correct. He is like an 80 sprint rider anyway with that sprint train of Quick Step.

Champ Armstrong- Olifardh is correct this is not based on a stage, week or even a couple of months but over the course of the season and part of 2017 for these Movistar riders.

Landa despite not being as good this season as last has been kept at 81 which to me is correct. Valverde will be back to 79 and was a dubious 78 anyway and I had my doubts. As has been said many times Valverde will ride like a point better in mtn anyway because of his super high hill and other backup stats etc. Quintana is quite simply outlived my patience and throughout most of 2017 was kept at 82 mtn and again this season despite the odd flash has been kept there. I stated before that Vuelta was his last chance and 81 or 80 mtn is what he will be and to be fair I’d say 80 mtn more than 81 as he just doesn’t seem to have the legs anymore. My reference was that if he wants to save himself from a possible 2 point drop he needs to perform over the next 2 mtn stages as the next GT is going to be 8 months away.

For the person that stated Quintana is tired after the Tour well that affects a lot of riders and in fact as somebody else mentioned when Quintana over the years has ridden both Tour and Vuelta he actually goes better in the Vuelta.

Kwiatkowski got dropped in hill not because of poor performances but rather due to the change in how he was statted as his power and mtn were increased. We did the same thing with Gilbert and D.Martin as well as they are different riders now.

Also Simon Yates’ stats are based on the Giro and not the Vuelta all that I have changed was a slight improvement in his TT so far and that will probably be it as his current stats are good enough to win the Vuelta.

Aizak the stat teams stats are the same as yours with the exception Amador who is 76.

Now Enric Mas is an example of where we have to break the norm. Normally we look at a rider’s ability over the year in general but quite often a rider does something above the expected and that needs to be recognized like Rosskopft the other day in TT but Mas was T think was a 74 mtn rider and have now put him to 78 and made him a power climber with higher res but even 78 might not be enough if he were to continue like so over the next few mtn stages but whatever happens he will at least be 78.

Bassii – Thanks for the post and will look at it a bit later.
i.imgur.com/vR8EVAA.png
 
AiZaK
In my opinion Amador deserves 77, he was 4th in the Giro, 8th in the Giro,.... he is good climber, the problem is there are some gregarios* for the climb and for the flat only can do very well Erviti and Amador, so if Amador all the day is 100% on the flat, when the cllimb arrives, he is tired, but Amador shows when he went to the Giro with Leader roles he can do very good in the Mountains
I can't explain better in english, sorry, jejeje


*(I dont know how is this word in english)
 
Tafiolmo
AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion Amador deserves 77, he was 4th in the Giro, 8th in the Giro,.... he is good climber, the problem is there are some gregarios* for the climb and for the flat only can do very well Erviti and Amador, so if Amador all the day is 100% on the flat, when the cllimb arrives, he is tired, but Amador shows when he went to the Giro with Leader roles he can do very good in the Mountains
I can't explain better in english, sorry, jejeje


*(I dont know how is this word in english)


Amador finished 8th some years ago in the Giro and he was 77 then, since then more of a support rider (gregarios) but he has other high stats and should ride a point better.

For the numerical sequence to be complete for Movistar:

81 Landa
80 Quintana
79 Valverde
78 Carapaz
77 Soler
76 Amador
i.imgur.com/vR8EVAA.png
 
Champ_Armstrong
No way Landa is a better climber than Quintana

At least equal stats, imo.
Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever.
 
Tafiolmo
Champ_Armstrong wrote:
No way Landa is a better climber than Quintana

At least equal stats, imo.


Well he needs to prove that today and tomorrow BUT I will agree that if they were both 81 mtn Landa would actually still be better as he has higher other stats so 81 for Quintana could work and satisfy most people.
i.imgur.com/vR8EVAA.png
 
jpgm97
Is there any problem with the stats spreadsheet, because it only shows Pogacar stats?
 
Naskela
Champ_Armstrong wrote:
A guy like Quintana is a legend IMO. 81 (82 POT) in MO in ALL my savegames, always.
Froome 82 (83 pot) always.

As I see it, Yates is a solid 80 MO with a good live-form (pot 83) with a bit lower rec and res, good acc though.

I'll give Simon Yates higher stats when he deserves it be proving it IRL. That could take some years Smile

A good example is Sagan, do you downgrade his stats just because of some bad months? hell no. The guy is still great and we know it. I personally got pissed when Kwiato's hill stat got downgraded by 3 just because of 1 spring season!?!?


Also have to take into account his biggest rivals came from the Tour and not the Giro like himself. All of riders in top 3 came from the Giro. And only guys top 10 GC who came from the Tour was Valverde, Kruijswijk, Quintana and Ion Izagirre (Gallopin and Uran did not finish half). So obviously these guys will not be as well prepared as Yates was.

I never seen the Vuelta as a good stage to determine stats anyway, guys who plan it well (ex Enric Mas or Chris Horner) could "easily" make sure they are in better shape than the rest of the peloton.
AG2R La Mondiale / Issy Paris Hand / Le Havre AC
 
Tafiolmo
Ok I'm just finishing off the rec stats for all of the riders that rode the Vuelta and these are going to be the mtn stats of the main GC contenders (top 12) Points to bear in mind are that Naskela hit the nail on the head with S.Yates at how much fresher he was than most of his other contenders (such as Kruiswijk) Valverde pretty much performed as expected and cracked as always on a mtn stage normally he does this is the second week) but this time at the end of the third week. Also Mas is a difficult one as well and at 79 could feel like an 80.

80
S. Yates
Kruijswijk
Quintana
Pinot

79
Lopez
Uran

78
Valverde (high other stats make him a point better)
Mas (High other stats make him a point Better)
Kelderman
Buchman

77
I.Izagirre

76
Gallopin (high flat and res)

Also despite standing by what I said on a previos post with Viviani the trusted Aldro on the stats team has suggested this for Viviani to satisfy those that want his stats increased and am willing to go with this

Viviani 80/81 (raised sprint 1 and dropped acc 1)

As always any suggestions are welcome and these stats can be changed before the Vuelta stats update.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 18-09-2018 08:41
i.imgur.com/vR8EVAA.png
 
Ollfardh
I think Simon Yates should be at 81. He destroyed Froome and Dumoulin for 2 weeks in the Giro and Quintana, Lopez and Kruijswijk 3 weeks in the Vuelta. It obvious his REC isn't as good at others (struggled in the last Giro week and wasn't the best on the last 2 vuelta mountains), but when it comes to MO, he should be among the best IMO.
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purepasd
Ollfardh wrote:
I think Simon Yates should be at 81. He destroyed Froome and Dumoulin for 2 weeks in the Giro and Quintana, Lopez and Kruijswijk 3 weeks in the Vuelta. It obvious his REC isn't as good at others (struggled in the last Giro week and wasn't the best on the last 2 vuelta mountains), but when it comes to MO, he should be among the best IMO.

Did you watch stage 19? Clearly the strongest imo.
 
Ollfardh
purepasd wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
I think Simon Yates should be at 81. He destroyed Froome and Dumoulin for 2 weeks in the Giro and Quintana, Lopez and Kruijswijk 3 weeks in the Vuelta. It obvious his REC isn't as good at others (struggled in the last Giro week and wasn't the best on the last 2 vuelta mountains), but when it comes to MO, he should be among the best IMO.

Did you watch stage 19? Clearly the strongest imo.


Nope, but he had to let (an irrelevant) Pinot go according to the report I read. But if he was the strongest, that only gives further support for my 81 MO suggestion.
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Tafiolmo
Ollfardh wrote:
I think Simon Yates should be at 81. He destroyed Froome and Dumoulin for 2 weeks in the Giro and Quintana, Lopez and Kruijswijk 3 weeks in the Vuelta. It obvious his REC isn't as good at others (struggled in the last Giro week and wasn't the best on the last 2 vuelta mountains), but when it comes to MO, he should be among the best IMO.


This is the best argument so far for Yates at 81 and agree with his superiority as a climber.

Pros:
Would need to be 81 to beat and outclimb a rider like Dumoulin that has 80 mtn now and really strong backups. Yates has strong backups but not as strong as Tom of course. and 81 would reflect that he is the most spectacular climber this season and give him that edge and allow him to compete with Froome. Also had he not had that epic crack at the Giro he would have won and would be the winner of two GT's in one year and we would clearly agree that he is worth 81.

Cons:
Would he be as good if the other contenders were much fresher?
By being 81 that could entail that other riders like Valverde and Mas could be a point higher too needing their adjustments.

Big question imo how much better in terms of climbing in points is Yates than say Valverde and Mas? I think this could be the key to deciding these stats
i.imgur.com/vR8EVAA.png
 
purepasd
Valverde having higher flat and hill stat could justify him having 78 while giving Yates 81 with similar REC, ACC and RES. Mas could be 79 and feel similar or a bit weaker than Valverde on mountains in the start of a GT, but slowly surpass him due to high REC.
 
AiZaK
In my opinion Valverde deserves the 79
 
tommyboy
Surely Lopez should be 80 as well?

3x runner ups on summit finishes. Climbed as well as anyone and aggressive throughout (maybe too much at times).

If he had ridden with Quintana on stage 9 and not dropped chain on the Camperona climb (still only lost 14 secs to Yates, despite having to go deep into red on brutal incline to chase back!) he would have been a clear second overall and maybe even threatening Simon. Also, did the majority (60/40 maybe?) of the work on last day when breaking away with Mas and this was not even his first attack of the stage.

Only getting better as well.

Can't be the same as ruddy Rigo Uran surely!!
 
purepasd
Agree with tommyboy ^^. Lopez could be 80 MO, high rec, mediocre res and lowish flat stats. He seems strongest on pure high mountain stages in the 3rd week of GT's, similarly to Kruijswijk.
 
Champ_Armstrong
Statsmakers logic: one good year = he must have the best overkilling stats
Also statsmakers logic: one bad race = he must be downgraded heavinly and become impossible to win anything with for the future.

What about the in-game live form? Season planning? Racedays?
Not considered when giving stats, apparently
Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever.
 
Tafiolmo
Champ_Armstrong wrote:
Statsmakers logic: one good year = he must have the best overkilling stats
Also statsmakers logic: one bad race = he must be downgraded heavinly and become impossible to win anything with for the future.

What about the in-game live form? Season planning? Racedays?
Not considered when giving stats, apparently


As said before we stat, taking last year into account as well. But we also have to recognize when somebody has an amazing year, otherwise we would have no contemporary stats

Examples:
Uran- Has always been a 79 mtn rider but had an amazing Tour last year and was risen to 80 based on that (no way can we have 2nd in Tour with just 79) but this year back to is more normal climbing form but we still gave him the benefit of the doubt upto the Vuelta where he didn't really perform.

Yates- An amazing year and as of yet will either be 80 or 81 depending on how other stats go, this is the perfect example where a more sudden increase is needed

Quintana- You call him a legend and imo this is a label that is displayed too often. He may have been worthy of this some years ago and his last strong year was 2016, since then he has been a shadow of his former self with the odd flash of form. To be fair we have actually been more patient with him than any other GT rider over the last 2 years and this year he has proved to be less than even last year so a 2 point reduction is due. In fact there have been more calls for 80 mtn than even just dropping him to 81. Overall I find it hard to justify that he should have better climbing stats than S. Yates.
i.imgur.com/vR8EVAA.png
 
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