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Posted on 30-11-2022 00:25
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weirdskyfan64
Interesting what Millar says about Kenacort making you more susceptible to infection, what with Wiggins and his 'chest infection' at the Giro.
Disclaimer- Most of my posts are me thinking aloud. And most of what I think is rubbish.
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"... Because he (me) has a sound tactical mind in general..." jandal7, at 9:30 am GMT on 12th May 2016
 
Stromeon
ringo182 wrote:
Are we saying 36k of TT is too much or too little? This year's TdF had one TT that was 37k alone.

Too little, but they've also scaled down on the mountain stages this year so it's less unbalanced than it might be.

A few general thoughts about the route:

- PdBF stage is a waste. Only caught a quick glimpse of it on the presentation but looks like no climbs beforehand - much more 2012 than 2014.

- Really pleased to see the inclusion of the Biche and Grand Colombier combo (one I know traceurs have been harping on and on about for years). Likewise the return of the Mont du Chat after an ungodly long hiatus. Not sure the best use of Biche and GC is to put them in a stage where they precede a long, flat valley section and are consequentially a long way from the finish, but let's not complain: not only are we getting new, tough, steep anti-Skybot climbs, but this may be the first time we've had 3 HC climbs in a stage since 2011 (and we all know what happened there!)

- Also really pleased to see Vosges, Jura and Massif Central all in the same route as well as Alps and Pyrenees.

- Pyrenees are very meh. Peyragudes stage is a re-hash of the 2012 stage, except chaining Menté with Bales and Peyresourde better (although tackling the easier side of Menté). I'm deeply suspicious of the Foix stage - it is literally just 100km - but thankfully they've avoided the stupid loop around the town (this from the 2012 Tour was one of the most idiotic pieces of route design I've ever seen) and given that it's the day after the MTF there's a chance we might see some action.

- Medium mountain stages like Station des Rousses and Puy-en-Velay look promising but need to wait for full profiles of everything before I can judge that. Nevertheless a good sign that they seem to be picking up that the Giro's been having a lot of success with well-designed medium-mountain stages recently.

- Serre Chevalier stage over the Galibier is good. Galibier will have been absent from the Tour for 6 years by the time next year rolls around, so I don't think we can complain about it being overused recently. Moreover the finish isn't all the way down the valley in Briancon, so it's basically a better version of this 2007 stage in pretty much every way. However, Izoard stage is pretty terrible; guess they didn't like how trying a descent finish as the last mountain stage worked this year so they've reverted to type, but it would make so much more sense to have the two Alps stages the other way round. Vars from the shorter side combined with Izoard which gets really steep towards the top means we're basically guaranteed no action outside the last 3km or so unless someone's feeling particularly brave/foolish (delete as appropriate).
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Forever the Best
What a bad route.

Ups:

Col de la Biche-Col du Grand Colombier combo!About time!

Mont du Chat with a descent finish!About time!

A 214 km mountain stage with Bales-Peyragudes combo.

Croix de Fer and Galibier with finish in Serre Chevalier.

The final climb in the Rousses stage looks pretty good.

Downs:

Izoard stage.

The Foix stage.If you design a stage with Mur de Peguere as the last climb with the finish in Foix it should be 250 km with many climbs.
Like this,for example(stage from Olanogiro in Puertos de Montana forum) :
fotos.miarroba.es/fo/e3a7/1757D3FE592A5763BF1C255763BDB8.jpgLink to his/her Tour:
https://apmforo.mf...our/?pag=5

Only 36 km of ITT?Really?

Many amount of sprint finishes.9 pure sprint stages.Horrible!Also Longwy and Rodez are boring uphill sprints,a bit exciting than pure sprint though.

Biche-Grand Colombier combo being wasted because of Mont du Chat.

PDBF stage.It is being overused and the stage is looking very flat,like 2012.

The Galibier stage should have been harder.

Galibier stage being before Izoard MTF which means that there will be no action.

The Rousses stage should have been harder.

The Peyragudes stage should have been harder.
Edited by Forever the Best on 18-10-2016 19:24
 
Riis123
Generally very much agree on your points, Stromeon. One thing tho.

"Also really pleased to see Vosges, Jura and Massif Central all in the same route as well as Alps and Pyrenees."

Thats whats said and its true, but Planche is essentially a one-climb stage (its like 2012) while the medium mountain stage finishing in Puy-en-Velay isn't hard enough, at all, to warrant any GC-relevant racing. Had been much, much better with a Massif Central stage like this year's and a Vosges stages with just some of the climbs beforehand from 2014. So while TdF visits all these places in just one Tour and is a very good story for ASO and Prudhomme to tell, its pretty hollow to me.
 
Forever the Best
Riis123 wrote:
Generally very much agree on your points, Stromeon. One thing tho.

"Also really pleased to see Vosges, Jura and Massif Central all in the same route as well as Alps and Pyrenees."

Thats whats said and its true, but Planche is essentially a one-climb stage (its like 2012) while the medium mountain stage finishing in Puy-en-Velay isn't hard enough, at all, to warrant any GC-relevant racing. Had been much, much better with a Massif Central stage like this year's and a Vosges stages with just some of the climbs beforehand from 2014. So while TdF visits all these places in just one Tour and is a very good story for ASO and Prudhomme to tell, its pretty hollow to me.
This Tour can be made much better by a some changes on stages climbs and their finishing locations.
At least there is a stage starting in Mondorf-les-Bains which makes me happy as a Schleck fan.Though after a second thought I couldn't care too much.
PS: Did you look two look to my Tour route which I posted both on here and on CN forum?
 
Ollfardh
Well, going to Liege and not using the hills there shows the lack of ambition of the people who decided the route.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
 
Riis123
Ollfardh wrote:
Well, going to Liege and not using the hills there shows the lack of ambition of the people who decided the route.

Its quite frankly pathetic, but the next day will be hilly which would explain why you wouldn't utilise the hills near Liege to get a good bike race going on. And the fact that you wan't Greipel or Kittel to win, obviously.
 
Shonak
So a opening ITT in Düsseldorf. Tony Martin crying because of a) winning the race) or b) not winning the race is basically guaranteed. Pfft
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Riis123
If the Germans really wanted Tony to win, throw in a 20-30 km opening ITT instead. Yolo. Chances of him winning a technical 13 km ITT on a city circuit (I assume) are not that good honestly.

Then again, maybe the Germans have bad memories of a long, opening time trial:https://www.youtu...N_dUmUjAPE

Pfft
 
Spilak23
It's not a technical course right? i remember reading (a while ago already) that the route would go mainly along the Rhine.
 
Roman
I am not happy to see TTs and TTTs disappearing more and more from GTs. These stages are really needed to keep variety of races to give us different scenarios and stories from every GT. Mass start only is not the way to go. It is ok to have a TT-light GT, but we are getting almost no TT kms at all. In my opinion really long TTs are a must for a more unique race from year to year.

Similarly I hate the trend of bigger and bigger percentage of mountain stages cutting short to around 100km per that stage. Again these stages can work great if they are well placed and well designed into a GT, but it is again about variety, not every GT should have these stage/s.

And also I hate to see ASO is not even trying to experiment. Road cycling has such a big potential. Not only mass start races have to be included in a stage race. I would love to see at least a try to include a rallye-esque time trial, when you go alone the whole stage, but only some parts of the stage are timed for general standings. And similarly I really don't understand why there is not a race that includes a pursuit stage. It is a great success in cross-country skiing or biathlon - it could work in cycling well too.
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Riis123
Its also pretty clear by now that ASO thinks Bardet >> Pinot. By having that little amount of ITT and some interesting descent finishes, it will persuade him to go all in at TdF since it was rumoured he was trying to win Il Giro. Not gonna happen now. He will love the prospects of stage 9 in Chambery and stage 17 to Serre Chevalier which arguably also are the two best stages in the race.

Pinot, on the contrary, should head to Italy in May and pursue stages and polkas in July like Majka has done a couple of times successfully.

I had hoped ASO would have went all in for Dumoulin and getting back to 100 kilometres of time trial and told Bardet and Quintana to dare to take the competition up. However, that requires that you actually create 2 real mountain stages more and, say, replace the Foix or Izoard stage and a sprinter's stage. That would be fair for everybody. That would also make the win count a lot more for me, like Pantani's in 1998, beating Froome on his own turf. This just seems meh, its too easy, its human. I don't want to see 100 kilometer stages, I want mountain stages I couldn't survive myself.
 
Guido Mukk
Roman wrote:
I am not happy to see TTs and TTTs disappearing more and more from GTs. These stages are really needed to keep variety of races to give us different scenarios and stories from every GT. Mass start only is not the way to go. It is ok to have a TT-light GT, but we are getting almost no TT kms at all. In my opinion really long TTs are a must for a more unique race from year to year.

Similarly I hate the trend of bigger and bigger percentage of mountain stages cutting short to around 100km per that stage. Again these stages can work great if they are well placed and well designed into a GT, but it is again about variety, not every GT should have these stage/s.

And also I hate to see ASO is not even trying to experiment. Road cycling has such a big potential. Not only mass start races have to be included in a stage race. I would love to see at least a try to include a rallye-esque time trial, when you go alone the whole stage, but only some parts of the stage are timed for general standings. And similarly I really don't understand why there is not a race that includes a pursuit stage. It is a great success in cross-country skiing or biathlon - it could work in cycling well too.


Pursuit stages is not great idea at cycling..because slipstream advantage is to big.
Solution..TT rule no slipstream? How do you do that when you releasing 180 riders?

Nothing to learn from cross country skiing ..they did fuck up the sport with mass starts and sprints. This days we decide 50km cross country gold medal with group sprint..it just sucks ..

I agree TT should be great part of any GT (as much I dont like Froome). It will mess up general standings..forcing climbers to go wild. To get some time back.
TTT's not so much ..Giro 20km TTT's are fine. But 50-60km. is already to big disadvantage for GC contender with weaker team. 2009 tour..it was almost as designed that Lance would wear a yellow..all damn Astana was inside top 10 after TTT.
Reminds me how Evans lost possibility to fight for a win..thanks to TTT
 
Avin Wargunnson
Please no experiments with pursuits and other gimmick fancy modes to bring in new fresh "energy and excitement". Cycling is already exciting enough and i agree with Guido that fancy modes can just ruin the sport, like the nordic skiing. I am very conservative with this and i dont see reason to experiment. Make your own sport, dont ruin the good one...

But i agree with you both that lack of TT kilometers is very worrying, i would like maybe +- 100kms on individual TT of different kinds in the race, no problem with three pure TT stages. TTT iam not sure, why not, cycling is team sport and you need good team, but money can buy you that which narrows the competition.

About the route discussion, i think you are too deep into that. I know that it has become passion for some people here, but i still think that riders and their directors make the race, not the route...ofc you can somehow benefit one or another style of the racer, but in the end all is about what riders are ready to do and what not.

Problems of last years in terms of boringness of the Tour are in my eyes rather caused by riders and teams afraid of loosing precious spot in top5-10, not by badly designed routes. There is super strong team closing all attacks and thus riders are scared shitless to attack, because they rather finish 4th in Paris instead of going for 2nd-3rd, because if they failed, they could drop to 7th for example...and sponsors/directors count every place, so everybody is happy and nothing happens.

Giro and Vuelta is much less pressure and spotlight, so teams/riders are not so chained there, thus we see better and agressive racing.
I'll be back
 
Shonak
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Giro and Vuelta is much less pressure and spotlight, so teams/riders are not so chained there, thus we see better and agressive racing.

Best seen if you compare the Yateses who I'd argue are both almost equally gifted and progressed the same, and I think are much the same mentality-wise.

One of them hang on all the time, didn't risk anything, rode a very conservative race and was satisfied with his great 4th place. The other one went into long range attacks, fought for stage wins, attacked and attacked and helped his teammate achieve an epic 3rd place in the Vuelta.

I am also against experiments. Pursuit sounds fun but it wouldn't work with a traditional sport like cycling that is also very focused on the team aspect.

I havn't seen the route yet but I am also an advocate of riders make the race, and if Contador & Bardet are ready for Tour 2017, we will surely get to see some awesome stuff.
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ringo182
Well the lack of tt miles is obviously an attempt by the organisers to ensure Froome isn't given a 5 minute headstart over Quintana. I guess they're hoping the others can make it a proper competition right into the last week with less tt's.
Not sure I agree with organisers planning routes specifically to hinder particular riders. It's like them changing the rules of the points jersey to try to stop Sagan winning. If a rider is clearly the best of his generation then he deserves to win a number of times.
I know they want to make the race interesting but they can do that without intentionally planning a route to stop Froome. The inclusion of a cobbled/PR style stage is one thing they could do. Although after the carnage the last time they did that I think that's put them off for a while Smile
Edited by ringo182 on 19-10-2016 08:37
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
 
the_hoyle
ringo182 wrote:
If a rider is clearly the best of his generation then he deserves to win a number of times.

If someone is the 'best of their generation', then they should be able to adapt to different route and terrains.

The route has been changed to avoid the boring Sky trains every stage and entice attacking riding which I welcome any day of the week.

And what is wrong with cobbles carnage? It is fantastic to watch and I would prefer that to a boring Mountain stage every day.
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ringo182
the_hoyle wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
If a rider is clearly the best of his generation then he deserves to win a number of times.

If someone is the 'best of their generation', then they should be able to adapt to different route and terrains.

The route has been changed to avoid the boring Sky trains every stage and entice attacking riding which I welcome any day of the week.

And what is wrong with cobbles carnage? It is fantastic to watch and I would prefer that to a boring Mountain stage every day.


I agree. But you must also agree that there is something morally wrong about the organiser of an event specifically setting out to plan a route to stifle one particular rider/team. If that happened in any other sport it would be considered corruption/cheating if for example UEFA/FIFA changed the rules to stop one particular team from winning.

I know cycling is unique as the route is changed each year.

And I didn't say there was anything wrong with a cobbled stage. I said that is what they could do instead of reducing tts and high mountain finishes to add excitement.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
 
Shonak
ringo182 wrote:
But you must also agree that there is something morally wrong about the organiser of an event specifically setting out to plan a route to stifle one particular rider/team. If that happened in any other sport it would be considered corruption/cheating if for example UEFA/FIFA changed the rules to stop one particular team from winning.

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ringo182
Shonak wrote:
ringo182 wrote:
But you must also agree that there is something morally wrong about the organiser of an event specifically setting out to plan a route to stifle one particular rider/team. If that happened in any other sport it would be considered corruption/cheating if for example UEFA/FIFA changed the rules to stop one particular team from winning.

gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AwwJeez.gif


What's aw jeeze about that?
You are saying that you are happy for organisers to design routes specifically to hinder particular riders rather than for the good of the race?
Routes will change yes. But in a grand tour there should be a certain number of high mountain finishes, a certain number of TT miles, a certain number of sprint stages etc.
There are only 6 stages classed as mountain stages and only 2 (possibly 3) could be classed as mountain top finishes. A grand tour with 2 mountain top finishes is simply wrong.

I understand why they are doing it to stop Froome putting 5 minutes into everyone in week one again to basically finish the race. But there are different ways to do that then to reduce the TTs and Mountain stages. Surely it's up to the other teams/riders to improve rather than for the organisers to design a route like this one.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
 
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