I don't think there is much to admire. They can't do anything to him, he's already comfortable with his millionairesque bank account leading CSC. Probably a guilt complex that was haunting him for years, which says he might be a honest man, deep, deep in there. I just feel sad he had to dope to finally beat Indurain.
Dan_Grr wrote:
I don't think there is much to admire. They can't do anything to him, he's already comfortable with his millionairesque bank account leading CSC. Probably a guilt complex that was haunting him for years, which says he might be a honest man, deep, deep in there. I just feel sad he had to dope to finally beat Indurain.
But he is still activ in cycling has team manager. There was a risk's...no TdF as team manager for him. Lance has even more money at bank account..what he affraid?
There is no proof Lance has doped. I sometimes had my suspicions about it, but being the genetic freak he is, I believe he managed his accomplishments on his own. His testicular cancer, like it or not, even helped him on the way as he lost a substantial amount of weight in muscle and fat in his upper body. His lower body remained strong. He also was used to have everything and everyone unders his control and things were done his way, personal assistants, jet, you name it. Add that to the fact that he only did a couple of races per year in preparation for one and only one race and you have the 7 time Tour de France winner.
Lance is a different animal. Cycling was and is a business for him. He is considering moving into politics, if not already mingled among them. Even if he by any chance had doped, a confession would completely destroy his opportunities in the world of politics, as well his prestige with his public appearances and all the money he has made with permitted licences to books, products, and even coaches, like Chris Carmichael.
Now Riis, his confession came in after several years have passed probably due to conscience relief. Lance may have much more money than Riis, but if he ever done anything wrong, he is not going to speak it out anytime soon.
Karl_rab wrote:
grrrr gerolstiener shouldnt carry on, we need better team, barlo, slipstream, Tinkoff, Jartzi the list goes on
Come on this is foolish to say..Gerolsteiner has been great and balanced team. What to Barlo or Tinkoff have to show against Schumacher, Rebellin and sprinter duo. Gerolsteiner spring was just great..sry that Kohl and Fothen had bad TdF.
well i just sayinhg that the team would be better spreading out into other teams to make them stronger as other teams have better up and coming riders, i mean westphal is there only good youngster, the rest would be suited elsewhere.
Dan_Grr wrote:
There is no proof Lance has doped. I sometimes had my suspicions about it, but being the genetic freak he is, I believe he managed his accomplishments on his own. His testicular cancer, like it or not, even helped him on the way as he lost a substantial amount of weight in muscle and fat in his upper body. His lower body remained strong. He also was used to have everything and everyone unders his control and things were done his way, personal assistants, jet, you name it. Add that to the fact that he only did a couple of races per year in preparation for one and only one race and you have the 7 time Tour de France winner.
Lance is a different animal. Cycling was and is a business for him. He is considering moving into politics, if not already mingled among them. Even if he by any chance had doped, a confession would completely destroy his opportunities in the world of politics, as well his prestige with his public appearances and all the money he has made with permitted licences to books, products, and even coaches, like Chris Carmichael.
Now Riis, his confession came in after several years have passed probably due to conscience relief. Lance may have much more money than Riis, but if he ever done anything wrong, he is not going to speak it out anytime soon.
There is evidence that Lance has doped. Just watch a video of him and his teammates go up a mountain in the Pyrenees, and I can remember times where almost the whole team was still there at the top, after having worked at the front of peloton driving the pace the whole time. The reason there is no drug test that says so is because Lance was well ahead of his time, the arm of the law wasn't up to snuff with what he was using, but he did dope. Before he won his first tour de France, I think it was Merkcx who said he wasn't a good enough time trialist or pure enough climber to win the tour, but during his heyday he was the best at both by a mile, and at that level such an improvement is extraordinary. Jan Ullrich was considered an exceptional talent when he entered, and couldn't keep up with Lance most days doped to the gills. Since most of the peoloton was doped, Lance certainly had a lot of talent, but don't let yourself think for a second he would have beaten Basso/Ullrich/any other GC contender who we know or believe doped, without taking performance enhancing drugs.
It took me a while to come to grips with Lance and almost all the peloton doping in some manner, but it just takes logic to figure it out. The people who get caught are the ones that make mistakes. In every case when you know how they did it, one realizes just how stupid it was (ala Vino).
And with that, I end my debate on doping unless we wanna take it to another sub forum.
PS, it'd be cool to see a master list of all the transfers this summer and in october if there is one on the net.
Karl_rab wrote:
grrrr gerolstiener shouldnt carry on, we need better team, barlo, slipstream, Tinkoff, Jartzi the list goes on
Come on this is foolish to say..Gerolsteiner has been great and balanced team. What to Barlo or Tinkoff have to show against Schumacher, Rebellin and sprinter duo. Gerolsteiner spring was just great..sry that Kohl and Fothen had bad TdF.
And of course that's the arguement, a team like Barlo did so much better than Gerolsteiner in the tour. They may have good riders, but they haven't had a whole lot of good results.
Yes..you cant constructe your final decision about one race. Who can be Barloworld classics man..? Lets but Barloworld for all Cya season lets see how many points they get..then Karl_lab will probably say..Barloworld sucks lets take Relax..Aqua sapone.
There is no reaon also built just 10 super team..this is would be death for cycling..and it's gonna be like F1 where is easy to predict a winner...
And we all know what has lately happening for super teams..you can built a team with money force..this is dont gonna last. You have to own great structure and clear future plans (youth development)..then you gonna last decades..like Lotto and Rabobank
Edited by Guido Mukk on 05-09-2007 22:45
Dan_Grr wrote:
There is no proof Lance has doped. I sometimes had my suspicions about it, but being the genetic freak he is, I believe he managed his accomplishments on his own. His testicular cancer, like it or not, even helped him on the way as he lost a substantial amount of weight in muscle and fat in his upper body. His lower body remained strong. He also was used to have everything and everyone unders his control and things were done his way, personal assistants, jet, you name it. Add that to the fact that he only did a couple of races per year in preparation for one and only one race and you have the 7 time Tour de France winner.
Lance is a different animal. Cycling was and is a business for him. He is considering moving into politics, if not already mingled among them. Even if he by any chance had doped, a confession would completely destroy his opportunities in the world of politics, as well his prestige with his public appearances and all the money he has made with permitted licences to books, products, and even coaches, like Chris Carmichael.
Now Riis, his confession came in after several years have passed probably due to conscience relief. Lance may have much more money than Riis, but if he ever done anything wrong, he is not going to speak it out anytime soon.
There is evidence that Lance has doped. Just watch a video of him and his teammates go up a mountain in the Pyrenees, and I can remember times where almost the whole team was still there at the top, after having worked at the front of peloton driving the pace the whole time. The reason there is no drug test that says so is because Lance was well ahead of his time, the arm of the law wasn't up to snuff with what he was using, but he did dope. Before he won his first tour de France, I think it was Merkcx who said he wasn't a good enough time trialist or pure enough climber to win the tour, but during his heyday he was the best at both by a mile, and at that level such an improvement is extraordinary. Jan Ullrich was considered an exceptional talent when he entered, and couldn't keep up with Lance most days doped to the gills. Since most of the peoloton was doped, Lance certainly had a lot of talent, but don't let yourself think for a second he would have beaten Basso/Ullrich/any other GC contender who we know or believe doped, without taking performance enhancing drugs.
It took me a while to come to grips with Lance and almost all the peloton doping in some manner, but it just takes logic to figure it out. The people who get caught are the ones that make mistakes. In every case when you know how they did it, one realizes just how stupid it was (ala Vino).
And with that, I end my debate on doping unless we wanna take it to another sub forum.
PS, it'd be cool to see a master list of all the transfers this summer and in october if there is one on the net.
Actually that is not evidence. That is what they call circumstantial evidence. NOT, i repeat, NOT actually evidece. Now i believe he did it clean, but that is just me. Perhaps i just want to believe he did it clean. Either way that is not evidence that he cheated.
Agreed Stemple. The fact is that US Postal Later Discovery simply had the best team. Lance always made sure of it. He surrounded himself with riders who could deliver him to the final climb in the best shape possible, then let him loose. Floyd Landis Did the same thing last year. Landis had the entire team working for him. You wouldn't see his teamates in the break killing themselves for a stage win. Mostly you saw Floyd sitting on Robbie Hunter's wheel wiht his teamate covering breaks pulling the pack or protecting him.
As for Landis' innocence I think he is innocent but that is my 'educated' opinion.
Well of course it isn't real evidence, but it is obvious enough. Lance did have a good team, but it wasn't so far and above everyone else's. Ullrich had Vinokourov (who I guess doesn't really count), and Kloden (who really does count) his last year, and still couldn't do it doped to the gills.
If Armstrong didn't dope, he would never have won 7 Tours. It's impossible given what we know now, with the technology in cycling, and the fact that riders are often very close skill wise. The best doping programs win.
I used to think Floyd was innocent, because at that time I was inspired by what he did in the Tour comign back from 8 minutes down, but there is a sharp realisation that you CANNOT create that kind of testosterone: epitestosterone naturally. It's impossible, that means he doped. Matthias Kassler was just ridculous but you have to realize he was caught. He may win in court, but I don't believe that makes him clean.
You also have to realize just how much money is involved in this, and the pressure put on by the team to get the result. In an age where everyone doped, you had to as well or be dropped. It seems part of the reason Lance has such a high image is because he came back from death's doors, and he has the endorsements, and the NA media (whatever little covers cycling), is oblivious to the doping in cycling.
I'm a great admirer of Lance Armstrong, with his work ethics his unmatched focus and that thrilling sense of being-in-the-present that would be to the envy of the highest yogis (sorry YM).
But after all that has happened in cycling in the past 2 years, there is no doubt in my mind that he was doped - in fact I'm sure he was way ahead of his time doping-wise and so was his team.
I still like him as a person and a role model for that matter. However, thinking that he might have been clean while the entire competition, which he usually outclassed by several minutes, was verifiably doped is either naivity beyond measure or plain bigotry.
Edited by Panaflex on 06-09-2007 03:13
I have had many doubts about him doping, but I still want to believe he didn't.
In light of recent events and also by Pens post, something makes me think otherwise: the withdrawal of Discovery Channel. Here is a team that makes 1st and 3rd in Tour de France, yet, it's going to end its sponsorship. Now this may not seem like a great deal, but it coincides with this year's amazing progress in anti-doping technology and accuracy and stronger and more agressive anti-doping measures. Look at how in Discovery, and former US Postal, all their riders improved climbing and time trial abilities substantially, like in no other teams.
Since they only raced a couple of races per year they could used their enormous budget in other things, like a high end doping program. This is what I thought at the time, but changed my stance on it since. But could it be that ludicrous?
Edited by Dan_Grr on 06-09-2007 07:34
Don't even compare one man to another...Armstrong is a man in a million, as he said in his book, when he went to a clinic at 16years old, they tested his capacity to breathe and the cpacity of suffering, and he had, and he continues to have, the most huge value in the firts thing and one of the most low values at suffering...
Alejandro Valverde missed an out-of-competition control on June 23 during the lead-up to the Tour de France. The UCI has given him opportunity to defend himself within ten days according to todociclismo.com. Similar circumstances led to the ejection of Michael Rasmussen from the Tour de France and an eventual dismissal from Team Rabobank. However, Valverde's representatives have indicated the UCI knew of his location since it was the day before he rode the Eindhoven Team Time Trial.
"Just embarrassing," said Eugenio Bermúdez, the secretary of the Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC). "It seems to me embarrassing and cheap that the UCI asks Valverde to present his evidence, and it threatens him with an admonition. He is able to demonstrate his absence through his plane ticket. Furthermore, in the race he passed the [anti-doping] control. The UCI has pulled out some items that are not compatible with the reality."
What you think about that..fight. At least I se first time how cycling federation..want to give a "green light" for suspicious rider.
I agree with Panaflex and PensFan. Also, I don't think we should forget that the retest of Lance's test from 1999 showed lots of EPO. I don't think Lance was an exceptionally good cyclist - I think he was exceptionally good at being one step ahead of the others medical wise. He knew exactly what he was tested for, he knew exactly what he could use without being caught. He used EPO until it was possible to test for it. And since then, he has most probably used blood doping like Ullrich, Basso, Vinokourov and all the other big stars. And then he stopped before they were able to trace that down.
Yes, that's not evidence. I don't have any evidence - but there's lots and lots of circumstantial evidence.
