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The "What Happened To ...?" Thread
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| ppanther |
Posted on 17-10-2013 20:48
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Ok, so let me explain this thread first. I am ever since interested in sudden increases/decreases in riders performances and "why" this happened. Since there is no particular thread where i could have asked these questions, i decided to create a new one. Also i always enjoy to read what the experts in this forum have to say on different topics, so i am sure i could learn quite a few things that are new to me. This should not be a doping thread only. Feel free to point out your opinion. This should also not be a Sky/Froome thread, although they are a very good example, since they have got their on thread.
Lets start the thread with the most famous "case" that comes to my mind, to make things going:
Lance Armstrong Post-Cancer:
What did really change him? As we know, he was on the full program before 1996. Also his "lost a lot of weight" myth is more or less debunked. My explanation would be rather simple: Ferrari. As far as i know he started a EPO program in 1995, the year he finished his first tour. Not that impressive, but certainly a step forward in GTs. In late 1995 he started working with Ferrari and came back "superstrong" and looking like a linebacker in early 1996, referring to teammates. So this indicates it was pretty much Ferrari, who transformed him into a GT winner, or was there something else i am missing?
Oh, and i know Armstrong is not the most interesting rider to talk, because of him being talked and talked over again, but i chose him because of his prominence. There are more interesting riers to come and please also feel free to ask your own questions. |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 01:44
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| Movistar |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:08
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He was also on a full regimen of Anabolic Steroids to recover from the cancer. |
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| ppanther |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:16
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Yeah, but he was on steroids before. Considering he took the same things as before, what was it that made his performance explode? |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:33
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1998 and Tour de Merde.
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| alex-sonic |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:33
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I think he trained a lot, maybe a lot better, as he said his training was a revolution, he was one of the first rider to specialize and only ride TDF if i'm not wrong?
When I see Vinokourov, he should have won TDF, he was on the road in february, won Paris-Nice then Amstel/Liège and after TDF!
Now riders seems to came back to a long time season (Rodriguez, Nibali, even Froome)
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| CountArach |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:34
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You don't want this to become a doping thread but quite honestly I don't know how you are going to avoid it. Huge leaps in performance usually are indicative of doping these days and huge drop offs in performance similarly are often indicative of coming off the juice. For example a lot of people here (myself included) believe that Anton is now at least fairly clean, and we can look at his huge drop in performance after that great Vuelta ride as evidence of that.
I'm curious about huge sudden increases in performance in the pre-EPO days though. None leap to mind though I'm sure some here could provide an example if there is one to be found.
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| CountArach |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:36
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alex-sonic wrote:
I think he trained a lot, maybe a lot better, as he said his training was a revolution, he was one of the first rider to specialize and only ride TDF if i'm not wrong?
One of but definitely not the first. I believe we have Le Mond to thank for inflicting this state of affairs on us. But by Armstrong's time it was fairly common.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:43
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LeMond is indeed the first name that springs to my mind when I hear about specialization, but as issoisso once pointed out to me, he still rode much more than riders who'd really specialize a couple of years later.
Actually, specialization came quickly after the wonder drug EPO. It was expensive and really takes its toll on a body (the whole doping program that is, not just EPO), that riders couldn't afford being on juice all year long.
With a cleaner peloton, the tendency to have riders riding with a decent level of competitiveness seems to be coming back.
There were still sudden performances leaps before the EPO days, not nearly in quite the same proportions as after. Taking amphetamines and painkillers for one particular race if you didn't do it usually would give you a significant boost. |
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| ppanther |
Posted on 17-10-2013 21:59
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Spilak23 wrote:
1998 and Tour de Merde.
Might be true to some point, but the climbing times of Armstrong and his rivals pretty much matched the pre 1998 times.
alex-sonic wrote:
I think he trained a lot, maybe a lot better, as he said his training was a revolution,
I don't think he trained a lot more or harder. Every top class pro is training as hard as possible. I can understand the second point to a certain extent. The whole cadence thing came up pretty much with him, if i am not wrong.
CountArach wrote:
You don't want this to become a doping thread but quite honestly I don't know how you are going to avoid it. Huge leaps in performance usually are indicative of doping these days and huge drop offs in performance similarly are often indicative of coming off the juice.
I want it to become a thread not only based on doping. I must admit it is hard too find performance increases in the 90s, which have nothing to do with doping. But if there is a certain rider, someone would like to discuss and he is related to doping, it is no problem either. |
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| ppanther |
Posted on 17-10-2013 22:22
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I try it with a non GT rider. Dario Pieri. Good classics rider, with an excellent 2003. In this year he dropped out of the Giro on stage 18, after still getting some more or less good sprint results. After the Giro 2003, nothing. 2004, 2005 and 2006 were totally shit years for him and after 2006 he retired. |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 17-10-2013 22:31
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Pieri weight close to 100 kilos those last couple years.
He's probably the fattest pro cyclist ever.
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| ppanther |
Posted on 17-10-2013 22:37
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Haha, didn't know that, but i think this explains quite a lot... |
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| kumazan |
Posted on 17-10-2013 22:42
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Spilak23 wrote:
Pieri weight close to 100 kilos those last couple years.
He's probably the fattest pro cyclist ever.
- 3...2...1... Hide your belly Dario!
- Well done!
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| ppanther |
Posted on 17-10-2013 22:52
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Ok, so after Pieri was an obvious case, i throw in a last one before i go to sleep: Thomas Löfkvist. I always thought of him as a clean rider, backed on the fact, that he always seemed to fade away after one week of a GT and no link to dodgy doctors/teams. Despite that he still managed to do very well. In the last years he didn't manage to get the results he once got. He isn't too old either. |
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| samdiatmh |
Posted on 18-10-2013 07:10
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ppanther wrote:
Ok, so after Pieri was an obvious case, i throw in a last one before i go to sleep: Thomas Löfkvist. I always thought of him as a clean rider, backed on the fact, that he always seemed to fade away after one week of a GT and no link to dodgy doctors/teams. Despite that he still managed to do very well. In the last years he didn't manage to get the results he once got. He isn't too old either.
I tend to disagree with Lovkvist
He was probably groomed as Sky's 2nd stage racer (after Wiggins) until Froome's emergence in the 2011 Vuelta, and then found himself on the outer (often riding in support, or with a weakened team [see 2012 giro startlist])
before moving to IAM (where they've got to get wildcards) in 2013
his results haven't been that bad compared to 2011, but methinks a bit of a "we've got Froome now, you ride for him" has happened |
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 18-10-2013 07:54
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samdiatmh wrote:
ppanther wrote:
Ok, so after Pieri was an obvious case, i throw in a last one before i go to sleep: Thomas Löfkvist. I always thought of him as a clean rider, backed on the fact, that he always seemed to fade away after one week of a GT and no link to dodgy doctors/teams. Despite that he still managed to do very well. In the last years he didn't manage to get the results he once got. He isn't too old either.
I tend to disagree with Lovkvist
He was probably groomed as Sky's 2nd stage racer (after Wiggins) until Froome's emergence in the 2011 Vuelta, and then found himself on the outer (often riding in support, or with a weakened team [see 2012 giro startlist])
before moving to IAM (where they've got to get wildcards) in 2013
his results haven't been that bad compared to 2011, but methinks a bit of a "we've got Froome now, you ride for him" has happened
I agree. That happens a bit too often.
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| Wilier |
Posted on 18-10-2013 10:51
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Luis Leon Sanchez wrote:
samdiatmh wrote:
ppanther wrote:
Ok, so after Pieri was an obvious case, i throw in a last one before i go to sleep: Thomas Löfkvist. I always thought of him as a clean rider, backed on the fact, that he always seemed to fade away after one week of a GT and no link to dodgy doctors/teams. Despite that he still managed to do very well. In the last years he didn't manage to get the results he once got. He isn't too old either.
I tend to disagree with Lovkvist
He was probably groomed as Sky's 2nd stage racer (after Wiggins) until Froome's emergence in the 2011 Vuelta, and then found himself on the outer (often riding in support, or with a weakened team [see 2012 giro startlist])
before moving to IAM (where they've got to get wildcards) in 2013
his results haven't been that bad compared to 2011, but methinks a bit of a "we've got Froome now, you ride for him" has happened
I agree. That happens a bit too often.
You never heard that story about how some talented riders never seem to develop at Sky? (And some riders who suddenly do, tremendously?)
Edited by Wilier on 18-10-2013 10:53
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 18-10-2013 11:23
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In the case of Löfkvist a read an interview a couple of years ago where he said that he wasn't given as many chances to ride for himself because the Swedish fans/press wasn't plentyful/enthusiastic enough resulting in a low "marketing value" for him.
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| vismitananda |
Posted on 18-10-2013 12:20
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Atlantius wrote:
In the case of Löfkvist a read an interview a couple of years ago where he said that he wasn't given as many chances to ride for himself because the Swedish fans/press wasn't plentyful/enthusiastic enough resulting in a low "marketing value" for him.
Wow that's pretty awful, I'm happy that this lad has won the Tour de Medetteranian early in the season. In my PCM games, Löfkvist is a succesful rider even riding in Sky. Well, that's from the game.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 18-10-2013 13:24
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Löfkvist gets sick. A lot. In most big races he was scheduled to lead, already at beginning or middle of the race he got various sickness.
Preety sure that affects him a lot still and takes its toll.
Edited by Alakagom on 18-10-2013 13:24
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